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You can have geothermal power everywhere if you drill deep enough

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Re: You can have geothermal power everywhere if you drill deep enough

#51
post #16
post #10

Yeah right. They drilled in Strasbourg, France, to get this "free" energy. When they entered production, the city was experiencing an earthquake every month, waking the city at night. After a magnitude 4 earthquake, they finally shut down the plant. A town in Germany is devastated also due to geothermal power: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staufen_im_Breisgau

Assuming this is a real problem, wouldn't you just put your geothermal power plant well outside of any city? Doesn't even have to be somewhere where there are no buildings. Just somewhere where hardening the few existing buildings against small earthquakes etc won't be too expensive.

> Assuming this is a real problem, wouldn't you just put your geothermal power plant well outside of any city?

The US’ fracking experiments show ”well outside of any city” is nowhere near enough.

Re: You can have geothermal power everywhere if you drill deep enough

#52
post #15

How much energy is in the core of the Earth? What happens if we cooled the core to the point that it became solid? I’m guessing that would be bad, but is it something that’s not conceivably possible on any human timescale?

We can pump heat into the core when it is hotter in the surface. So, it can also work as a battery.

> We can pump heat into the core when it is hotter in the surface.

Were you expecting a massive meteor impact in the near future that the rest of us are unaware of?

If not, exactly how were you planning to get enough heat at the surface of the Earth to warm-up the core?

Re: You can have geothermal power everywhere if you drill deep enough

#53
post #44
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries have almost no wilderness left; everything is either urban or agriculture or mountains with no convenient place for an earthquake.

Seismic disturbances are generally a concern for dense urban areas. It seems unlikely that agricultural areas would care that much.

Is there any conceivable burden urbanites don't imagine the people and land outside urban areas can tolerate?

We don't live in grass yurts you know. Bridges and dams are a thing. Earthquakes are a problem. Deep fracking operations have demonstrated this already.

Re: You can have geothermal power everywhere if you drill deep enough

#54
This sounds like cool tech, and the re-use of the existing generation assets is clever, but just running costs of the steam part of an existing plant struggles to compete on a financial basis with wind turbines and solar PV so it'll probably only ever be a niche thing.

Shared ground loops connected to heat pumps are a more boring tech with more potential to have a global scale impact.

Re: You can have geothermal power everywhere if you drill deep enough

#55
I hope that investors did the math to ensure that the energy used to dig such a deep hole with microwaves doesn't end up consuming more energy than the hole will generate over its lifetime... Will the hole crack irreparably after a few months?

Nowadays, there seems to be an epidemic of engineering neglect in terms of capital allocation. A lot of wealthy individuals who have the capital to invest in such projects do not seem to have the engineering mindset (or no longer do) to see through greenwashing BS.

"It's all about the people" is BS. These days, there are charlatans everywhere and they seem to have monopolized all the billionaires.

Re: You can have geothermal power everywhere if you drill deep enough

#56
post #45

Microwave drilling. It's a known thing at small scale.[1] If it can be done at larger scale, it ought to have other applications. Doing it downhole at the end of a long pipe string is going to be much harder than doing it in a factory. So why isn't this an industrial machining process already, like plasma cutting? GA Drilling was pushing plasma drilling back in 2018.[2] They're still pushing it, but not making holes.…

This could also have good use for ground source heat pumps - they're the most efficient, robust and consistent source of domestic heating we have, but require fairly deep (60m ish) boreholes. If digging could be quicker, easier or faster these heat pumps could be installed everywhere.

Re: You can have geothermal power everywhere if you drill deep enough

#57
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had the thought for a while now that it might be a good idea to start changing the climate change narrative to a problem of planetary heat engineering, not simply a problem of GHG reduction. The current narrative is largely defeatist and regressive. It's largely about rolling back growth and the amount of energy civilization has harnessed. But if the narrative was altered to be a heat engineering problem, then i…

I think there are other effects of increased CO2 concentration that are not well understood and could be catastrophic. Like ocean acidification. That actually scares me far more than the heat aspect.

It's also a bit more difficult to diffuse out of classrooms and such with 400+ ppm background vs 300ppm. At what threshold it affects alertness, cognition, or motivation is disputed.

Re: You can have geothermal power everywhere if you drill deep enough

#58
post #10

Yeah right. They drilled in Strasbourg, France, to get this "free" energy. When they entered production, the city was experiencing an earthquake every month, waking the city at night. After a magnitude 4 earthquake, they finally shut down the plant. A town in Germany is devastated also due to geothermal power: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staufen_im_Breisgau

I believe you may have missed what these folks are doing differently.

To put it into context, geothermal energy that taps underground water reservoirs near heat sources has been shown to cause earthquakes and other not good side effects. All of those effects are associated with water being released from aquifers that were previously sealed, or ground changes due to water incursion into previously dry structures (which happened in the reference German town). These guys however are digging below all of that. In fact finding water that near the surface would likely cause them to determine the location unsuitable.

Modern geothermal plants are "binary" in that they have their own water loop which goes down, gets heated, and then comes back as steam. A good explainer is here: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/geothermal/geothermal-po...

What these guys propose doing is essentially drilling into rock 6+ miles down. That is about 5 to 10 times deeper than current plants. Using the heat from the rock which is near 1000 degrees to heat water that they pump through it into steam and recover through the turbines. The whole "pipe" from well head to return is nominally sealed with the vitrified walls created by the microwaving process.

Let's assume (and I don't know since I don't work for these guys but we need numbers if we're going to guess at things) that their "drilling" with microwaves technology leaves behind a 12" diameter hole that is > 6 miles deep. And we can drill two of those holes in such a way that they meet at their maximum depth. I'm imagining holes that start on the surface 100+ yards (or meters) apart drilled with a slight angle to meet when they are 6+ miles deep. How much power could we expect to get out of that?

So let's do a little math, water weighs about .03621 lbs/cubic inch. And a 1ft tall, 1ft diameter cylinder of water would way about 49 lbs. A mile is 5280 feet so a mile high column of water, 12" in diameter, would weigh 258,851 lbs, and a 6 mile high column would weigh 1,553,283 lbs (a bit under 777 tons) so the force at the bottom of the column would be about 13,734 psi. At 935F it would pretty much instantly convert to 'dry' steam, and could likely be recovered at about 10,000psi on the other side of the well.

It has been a long time since I had to figure out from a steam table how much energy was extractable from super heated steam, but it is a lot. It goes through the turbine, piped through a cooling tower to condense it back into water, and then dropped back into the source hole.

The risk of earthquakes and other geo-technical disturbances is minimized by what is essentially a closed loop system.

Now it is true that you're going to cool the crust (energy is conserved after all and if you're running turbines it means the crust is cooling) the question then is how quickly is that heat returned by other actions. And of course if you were to pull "all" the energy out fast enough this way you could presumably "freeze" the core of the Earth and that would be a bad thing, but we're talking about way more energy than the entire world consumes in a centuries and I'm not sure how to judge that risk compared to the heat generation mechanisms inside the planet. An actual geologist probably has an idea.

Re: You can have geothermal power everywhere if you drill deep enough

#59

Assuming this works, tech still won't save us alone. Pure thermal (ie. just energy, no GHG) climate change is right around the corner if energy use keeps going up exponentially and we keep reducing earth's albedo. Ecosystems are still being obliterated for cattle and mining. All ghg free electricity will do is buy a few decades to end (and in the west, reverse) growth. Possibly the only thing that will give civilisat…

Data or it didn't happen. A statement as extreme as "a few decades to end growth" without a citation is best treated as a hysterical opinion than a fact.

"if we confine ourselves to the Earth’s surface, we exhaust solar potential in 400 years" -- https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/

Equally interesting:

https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/07/can-economic-growth-last/

Re: You can have geothermal power everywhere if you drill deep enough

#60
post #10

Yeah right. They drilled in Strasbourg, France, to get this "free" energy. When they entered production, the city was experiencing an earthquake every month, waking the city at night. After a magnitude 4 earthquake, they finally shut down the plant. A town in Germany is devastated also due to geothermal power: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staufen_im_Breisgau

The Staufen im Breisgau mishap is one of the learning experiences of geothermal energy, like analyzing the type of rock that you plan to drill through, and maybe not drill in a town center. But apart from that, you seem to have misinterpreted the Quaise technology, mixing apples and oranges. This is not conventional drilling which can cause water to flow into adjacent rock (not to mention fracking which deliberately…

A conventional drill can be cemented as well, the technology is already existing but mishap happened anyway

Another town near Strasbourg is devastated like staufen Im breigsbau: Lochwiller. With the same issue as staufen, except that in this case it was a family who drilled to heat their home.

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