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Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

reuters.com

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Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#231

Post by Jcowell »

tehjoker wrote: post #217
eganist wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think that we all should feel pain of sanctions? Because we are not able to stand against gov? Well, we are not able. Every person can. That's why sanctions exist: to incentivize a government to focus on its people and isolate a violent government from the world, or conversely, for a people to hold their government accountable. What would you propose the world do instead of sanctions when diplomacy alone…

Collective punishment is against the laws of war and the UN charter. My preferred resolution would be NATO backing off and agreeing to Ukraine as a neutral buffer state with Russia withdrawing troops. The American foreign policy instinct is always for unrelenting brutality.

Yes YOUR preferred resolution The people of Ukraine however would probably approve of the sanctions as the ongoing conflict persists.

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#232

Post by jacquesm »

sneak wrote: post #228
jacquesm wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true but the sanctions do send a message, especially if those sanctions also affect the EU: that we are willing to take a hit to get this under control. Regardless: if Russia doesn't come to its senses quickly the country will likely not recover in the next 40 years or so from the kind of damage they are doing to their stature on the international stage, this is not the kind of thing you walk away from and cla…

Russia is a lot more than its military dictators, it is the Russian people you are talking about harming. Should cancer patients in Oklahoma not be permitted to buy chemotherapy medications because Bush invaded Iraq? We banned collective punishment in the Geneva Convention because it is insane and unjust. I have persian friends with family in Iran who can testify firsthand to how damaging sanctions are to people who…

> Russia is a lot more than its military dictators, it is the russian people you are talking about harming.

Yes, and I'm sorry about that. But that is the country that is currently invading another country.

> Should cancer patients in Oklahoma not be permitted to buy chemotherapy medications because Bush invaded Iraq?

I'm out of patience for the day for silly arguments, sorry.

> We banned collective punishment in the Geneva Convention because it is insane and unjust.

That's not what collective punishment is about.

> I have persian friends with family in Iran who can testify firsthand to how damaging sanctions are to people who have no ability whatsoever to remedy the problems that caused the sanctions to be put in place. Personifying countries is an error.

Yes, this is called collateral damage. See also: photos of Ukrainian kids sheltering in the Kiev subway today in fear of the Russian onslaught headed towards their city, if you want to personify this then maybe have a look at those instead of trying to gain sympathy for the citizens of the aggressor nation.

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#233

Post by nomel »

13415 wrote: post #162
netXten wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I forgot to ask a question. Why do you think that we all should feel pain of sanctions? Because we are not able to stand against gov? Well, we are not able. And I think noone would be able if there is such a law and permissions of authorities. And for sure we, who know English(ok, not as good like any EU-person knows) and not working in gov-structures are the most small part of russians who have different opinion

The victims are the people in Ukraine, not you. People are dying there and the country has been dragged into chaos. Russia is 100% the aggressor in this case. If you don't want to feel the pain of sanctions, you better do something to change your government. This might not appear fair to you and certainly isn't easy, but don't forget that life is currently even less fair to the Ukrainians who die defending their coun…

> The victims are the people in Ukraine, not you.

This is such a simplistic take, considering a true dictator is in power, who has continually demonstrated a heavy, unforgiving, hand, with any concepts of democracy being laughably false (107% voter turnout!).

Multiple bad things can happen at once. Multiple people can be victims. Nothing is actually black and white.

The Russian people that didn't vote for Putin aren't associated with the army that's attacking right now, in any way, other than randomly being born within the countries borders, where one of the most powerful dictators in the world happens to rule.

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#234

Post by eganist »

tehjoker wrote: post #217
eganist wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think that we all should feel pain of sanctions? Because we are not able to stand against gov? Well, we are not able. Every person can. That's why sanctions exist: to incentivize a government to focus on its people and isolate a violent government from the world, or conversely, for a people to hold their government accountable. What would you propose the world do instead of sanctions when diplomacy alone…

Collective punishment is against the laws of war and the UN charter. My preferred resolution would be NATO backing off and agreeing to Ukraine as a neutral buffer state with Russia withdrawing troops. The American foreign policy instinct is always for unrelenting brutality.

> Collective punishment is against the laws of war and the UN charter.

There's nuance that you're missing (e.g UN not empowered to sanction war crimes by a veto-power state), and your broad interpretation doesn't align with accepted practice.

A relevant analysis: https://www.epw.in/engage/article/do-sanctions-violate-inter...

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#235

Post by gutitout »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #212
gutitout wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This incredible high brow view is a stain on what is happening in Russia. I’m in America and I am not at all surprised that our private company’s are in the pocket of our government interests, once again. This would feel like ANOTHER provocation, if you are a Russian official. I wonder if we will see Americans realize that (at least in part) this Russian aggression is a retaliation to how the USA / EU policies have p…

> ...how the USA / EU policies have put the Ukrainian people in incredible danger for their own political motive. Please excuse my ignorance but how did the US and EU put the UA people in danger?

I want to preface this by saying that I 100% disagree with the war in Ukraine and the Russian infiltration and my heart goes out to the Ukrainian people. Also, please feel free to correct me or argue these points! A few ways: 1. NATO is largely an anti-Russian coalition. With many of its boarder neighboring countries being part of it. You can google the map and you will see the strategic position of those countries. In the West, only Belarus and Ukraine have not been added to this list of Russian neighboring countries. The USA & EU has been running military drills at those locations for many decades in an act of intimidation. 2. Sanctions are effecting mostly the everyday people of Russia. This is gathering more support internally for Putin’s aggression. 3. The Ukraine has a major movement toward the west in the last decade. Making Ukraine NATO would be another enemy at the boarder and this would be unfavorable for the Russian’s. Again provoking conflict in the region. 4. There has been no attempt by the USA to work with Putin or the Russian officials. Even using Russia as a scapegoat for the Wikileaks dump in 2016. And of course so, so much more anti Russian sentiment in our media ahead of this. 5. Biden and his sons involvement in the Ukraine (as reported on in 2020 by some of the US media) shows the constant strain that the Ukrainians are under. A pawn between the USA and Russia. Open to thoughts and opinions by everyone!

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#236

Post by dragonwriter »

eganist wrote: post #234
tehjoker wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collective punishment is against the laws of war and the UN charter. My preferred resolution would be NATO backing off and agreeing to Ukraine as a neutral buffer state with Russia withdrawing troops. The American foreign policy instinct is always for unrelenting brutality.

> Collective punishment is against the laws of war and the UN charter. There's nuance that you're missing (e.g UN not empowered to sanction war crimes by a veto-power state), and your broad interpretation doesn't align with accepted practice. A relevant analysis: https://www.epw.in/engage/article/do-sanctions-violate-inter...

> UN not empowered to sanction war crimes by a veto-power state

The UN has had a structure for dealing with veto-power obstructionism since 1950.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assem...

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#237

Post by nomel »

reaperducer wrote: post #101
skybrian wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much have they changed their minds in the last few days?

How much have they changed their minds in the last few days? Enough that there are protests in most major Russian cities against the invasion of Ukraine. Just yesterday, Moscow police arrested over 1,000 protesters. They can only keep up that pace for so long.

> They can only keep up that pace for so long.

Sorry, do you mean the protestors can only keep it up for so long, or the police can only keep arresting for so long?

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#238

Post by AgentME »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #112

Russian here. Most comments here are pure nonsense. The only reason Facebook risks getting blocked is because in Russia it is predominantly used by dissidents and people in opposition to Putin's regime. It doesn't block groups, events, etc at Kremlin's behest. So it should be blocked. Upd: many commenters here clearly misread my comment, or maybe it's my poor English. "It should be blocked" means that it is in Putin'…

(going off-topic, talking about language)

>So it should be blocked. Upd: many commenters here clearly misread my comment, or maybe it's my poor English. "It should be blocked" means that it is in Putin's interest to block it, but better under some pretext. I am personally in a very sharp opposition to Putin's criminal syndicate.

It's ambiguous, but I definitely think most English-speakers read a sentence like "So X should happen" to mean the speaker is prescribing an action they agree with. If I was writing about what I expected another group to do while avoiding implying I agreed with their logic or was trying to raise support for the action happening, I'd phrase it without the word "should" like "so it makes sense for them to do it".

It might be reading too far into this, but this makes me very curious what differences there may be between languages and cultures in how they talk about "should", their expectations, and their own values vs other groups' values. I wonder if it's common for a sentence meaning "bad outcome X is likely [for others to do]" to be mistranslated into something read as "we should support making outcome X more likely, [it's really not so bad]".

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#239

Post by nomel »

FpUser wrote: post #169
dshpala wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, "point to Russians". I have several friends in Moscow, and up until the last few days they were in complete denial about Putin's intentions or troops buildup. There were memes, jokes, etc. The propaganda inside Russia is very strong. Russians need sanctions, they need to start suffering (economically or otherwise). And then maybe they'll wake up.

I am not in Russia and I did not believe that Putin will attack. I did not expect him to be that kind of retard. >"Russians need sanctions, they need to start suffering" When you talk like this about whole nation I am not even sure what to call it. Well actually I do but I did not yet have enough of HN.

I'm not the parent, and I consider the people of Russia to be a separate entity from their government.

But, how do you see Putin getting pushed out of power, other than by the Russian people? If it is required that the Russian people push him out, is it not logical that they must be motivated, with the assumption that sanctions would not be required if they were already motivated enough?

I'm trying to understand all of this, and I appreciate your opinion/perspective.

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#240

Post by sneak »

jacquesm wrote: post #232
sneak wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is a lot more than its military dictators, it is the Russian people you are talking about harming. Should cancer patients in Oklahoma not be permitted to buy chemotherapy medications because Bush invaded Iraq? We banned collective punishment in the Geneva Convention because it is insane and unjust. I have persian friends with family in Iran who can testify firsthand to how damaging sanctions are to people who…

> Russia is a lot more than its military dictators, it is the russian people you are talking about harming. Yes, and I'm sorry about that. But that is the country that is currently invading another country. > Should cancer patients in Oklahoma not be permitted to buy chemotherapy medications because Bush invaded Iraq? I'm out of patience for the day for silly arguments, sorry. > We banned collective punishment in the…

I have sympathy for the innocent people on all sides of these invisible lines who are or will be harmed by the criminal, violent actions of a tiny minority. Nationality does not enter in to it at all.

Using techniques that will not affect those who caused the war, while severely punishing those who are not involved in the war (simply because of where they live), will not help the situation, it will make it worse.

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