Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#141

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:51 PM UTC

pacetherace wrote: post #98

ch4s3 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's starting to look like Putin may have miscalculated here.

Really? He is fighting to have veto over who gets to join NATO. It will be a victory for him if he is able to freeze NATO membership to the current number. Russian economy maybe be ruined for next decade or longer and most likely Putin will be dead or retired by then but he would be looked in Russia as the guy who keep Russia relevant. Putin is embarrassing US and NATO by destroying Ukraine while they watch helplessl…

He will be the guy that turned Russia into a complete pariah.

At some point other Russians in power will realize that Putin is the cause of their troubles, that's one of the better roads to an acceptable outcome here.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#142

Post by avgcorrection » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:51 PM UTC

long_time_gone wrote: post #82

Ekaros wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really makes perfect sense. USA has long history of imperialism and anti-democratic actions. And USA is core of NATO. Any sane country knows that only safe way is to have reasonable buffer zone against such well known aggressor.

Ukraine was the buffer zone and Putin invaded them. Now he has NATO at his doorstep in Poland.

Not if the plan is to install a pro-Russian puppet regime. But considering 2014 I don’t see how that new regime would last for more than a week.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#143

Post by cjblomqvist » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:51 PM UTC

There's a lot of comments about how outrageous the lack of a harsher response (in particular the lack of military action) from the west/NATO/USA is. But, whatabout the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? Weren't they quite similar (the big difference being that those countries were not close to the US geographically and not really posing a big threat). Why was those invasions ok but not this one?

Just to make clear: I'm definitely not in favor of the current invasion.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#144

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:52 PM UTC

pacetherace wrote: post #98

ch4s3 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's starting to look like Putin may have miscalculated here.

Really? He is fighting to have veto over who gets to join NATO. It will be a victory for him if he is able to freeze NATO membership to the current number. Russian economy maybe be ruined for next decade or longer and most likely Putin will be dead or retired by then but he would be looked in Russia as the guy who keep Russia relevant. Putin is embarrassing US and NATO by destroying Ukraine while they watch helplessl…

> I have utmost sympathy for Ukraine but where were the angry people when US attacked Iraq?

In many cases, calling for George W. Bush and much of the military and diplomatic leadership of the US to be punished for the crime of aggression (initially) and war crimes (based on the conduct of the illegal-from-the-start war).

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#145

Post by mindslight » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:53 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #68

I don't understand why Russia, or anyone else, thinks that Ukraine was anywhere near joining NATO. Ukraine had bits of it that were occupied by Russia, specifically Crimea. There was no way Ukraine would have been allowed to join under such circumstances because such occupations would have immediately triggered Article 5. Letting Ukraine into NATO would be tantamount to declaring war on Russia. It was never a real op…

> I don't understand why Russia, or anyone else, thinks that Ukraine was anywhere near joining NATO

IMO, because this is how all of Putin's propaganda has framed it. NATO is some big bully ("Nazi") that keeps "aggressing" by letting sovereign countries liberalize and freely associate with the West. The shameless destruction of Ukraine is right in line with the authoritarian autocrats's imperative - turn the place into a burnt out shithole so it can be better ruled over, and so that reactionary survival values become relevant again.

The fate of Ukraine is (regrettably) solely in the hands of the Ukrainians at this point, but Russia's crass action is also an attack on the ethos of our Western society - cooperation, openness, democracy, and the rule of law - however flawed they end up being. I would say that Putin's chest thumping at other countries is just intended to make the western world feel relieved when only Ukraine gets conquered, but I feel that's coming from the same optimistic-rational place as the idea that there wasn't going to be a full scale invasion in the first place.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#146

Post by edmundsauto » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:53 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #79

QuikAccount wrote: post #13

For those wondering why Sweden is included in this threat despite not sharing a border with Russia, Finland and Sweden are like best friends and have been approaching anything regarding NATO and Russia as a unit together. Sweden joining NATO pretty much automatically means Finland also intends to join NATO. Anyway, this threat loses a lot of teeth when the reason Ukraine is getting destroyed at the moment is because…

> Anyway, this threat loses a lot of teeth when the reason Ukraine is getting destroyed at the moment is because they are not in NATO. It is because they are not in NATO and also did not explicitly abandon the aspiration of joining. The threat is intended to get Finland and Sweden to explicitly disclaim any intent of joining NATO (and maybe make binding commitments), not just to get them to not apply. OTOH, as you no…

Honest question, do you really believe that Russias attack was based on the NATO aspirations, or is that just an excuse? I don’t take what Putin says at face value.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#147

Post by hnarn » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:53 PM UTC

anonyfox wrote: post #66

As a German I was today years old when I learned that sweden isnt part of the nato already … like the current secretary even sounds swedish by name … whelp Edit: really don’t want to sound ignorant here, just that while growing up and traveling around Central Europe there was a strong belief that we‘re all in the same boat and I even remember maps showing all countries (except Switzerland) in shades of „blue“ but … I…

You haven't heard about Sweden being neutral for 200 years?

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#148

Post by bluGill » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:53 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #32

rhino369 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even worse, when you invade someone who tried to join NATO, was given the same warning, didn't join NATO, and then was invaded anyway. Finland and Sweden should join now while Russia doesn't have the ability to invade (because their forces are busy in Ukraine).

Whether they join or not, Finland and Sweden better beef up their defenses, starting yesterday...

Also relations with NATO. Even if not in NATO directly, the stronger relations are the more likely it is various NATO countries are to come to their aid.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#149

Post by dragontamer » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:53 PM UTC

BuckRogers wrote: post #125

dragontamer wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of NATO if we just defend other countries who don't meet our requirements of NATO? NATO is _already_ in a tough spot, many countries will fail the 2% spending on defense requirement (though I'm sure Russia is making them reconsider). We can't just be throwing NATO's guarantees around to countries who didn't make it into the alliance yet. NATO is an alliance, and a defensive alliance at that. The line…

I don't care about NATO. I'm talking about what my country alone, the USA, must now do. We can't allow anyone to use MAD as an excuse to march into a sovereign nation, anywhere on Earth. The US has to do the right thing now, and defend Ukraine before it falls. This is Hitler in Czechoslovakia. Going tit for tat on details of NATO and hand-wringing as I take it you are doing, is a point we are far beyond now. It's som…

But we aren't doing nothing.

USA is 100% employing the old "Arsenal of Democracy" strategy. We're shipping huge amounts of weapons over to Ukraine. Just last January, we sent something like $200-million in weapons (largely Javelin missiles, which are clearly blowing up Russian tanks in pretty good numbers). That's January alone.

There's different steps and different grades to the aid we can give to other countries. We shouldn't reach for the most extreme action immediately, we need to choose the right level of "Grayness", the right level of aid for each situation.

Ukraine is in luck: Poland is an immediate neighbor to the west and Poland is a NATO ally. That means we actually have a physical ability to bring in those weapon supplies, and a logical basis to base our operations out of.

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> This is Hitler in Czechoslovakia.

If we put this on WW2 terms: USA only started sending military equipment to UK after France fell. For us to already be openly arming a nominally neutral party like Ukraine is already a steep escalation in terms of historical terms.

USA originally did nothing as Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia, Austra, Poland, and even France.

The "Arsenal of Democracy" speech by Roosevelt wasn't until December 1940, months AFTER the fall of France.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#150

Post by skuhn » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:53 PM UTC

long_time_gone wrote: post #82

Ekaros wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really makes perfect sense. USA has long history of imperialism and anti-democratic actions. And USA is core of NATO. Any sane country knows that only safe way is to have reasonable buffer zone against such well known aggressor.

Ukraine was the buffer zone and Putin invaded them. Now he has NATO at his doorstep in Poland.

Which leads to Russia's next demand: to reduce NATO military deployments in NATO member states who joined after 1997.

Poland joined in 1999, and generally speaking all of the eastern European nations that joined were after 1997.