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The underground economy of solitary confinement

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Re: The underground economy of solitary confinement

#51

Post by nonameiguess »

randomacct8162 wrote: post #11
syki wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for sharing your experience and bringing these things to light. As Dostoevsky said, you can judge a society by how well it treats its prisoners. We are not a free people when we live under the threat of being out into a prison system as barbaric as the one we have.

I did have one positive interaction with a guard that stood out to me from my time in there I was being transported to a hospital for a medical procedure, and I was talking to the guard who taking me, to pass the time. I asked him why on earth he would want to be a prison guard -- after all, they are in there with us for 10 hour shifts, and prisons are some of the most bleak/depressing places on earth. That has to ta…

I put myself through community college working overnight shifts cleaning restrooms in a theme park and was briefly homeless a few times. Several of those times happened to coincide with finals week and resulted in missing exams and failing a few classes. It ended up that, by the time I graduated, the only major I could successfully complete was in Philosophy, with a minor in Biology. I was the first person in my family to ever go to college and didn't exactly have much in the way of advice or help to go on. It turns out those aren't particularly lucrative fields and don't really point you in any specific direction when it comes time to look for jobs.

Well, back then, the state of California guaranteed a minimum starting salary of $79,000, and paid overtime, to prison guards, which was roughly double what I was looking at making from doing anything else. So I applied. The only reason I didn't end up ever actually working in the prison system is that the background check and psych eval process took over a year to complete, and by the time they gave me an offer, I'd already joined the Army.

Almost 18 years later, after going back to school again while in the Army for Applied Math and Computer Science, here I am, but in another timeline, I'm a prison guard.

Re: The underground economy of solitary confinement

#52

Post by stinkytaco »

alexpotato wrote: post #9

This article reminded me of this economics paper from a former World Ware 2 prisoner of war describing the "market economy" that formed in the POW camps. http://icm.clsbe.lisboa.ucp.pt/docentes/url/jcn/ie2/0POWCamp... It's fascinating because it describes: - Open outcry markets - Exchange rates - N dimensional preference spaces - Collapsing money supplies - Market shocks All in plain English and using specific exampl…

Also interesting the Sarajevo Survival Guide [1]. Similar, but with a more tongue in cheek and modern bent. Made me want to stockpile cigarettes and pornography.

[1]: http://www.friends-partners.org/bosnia/surintro.html

Re: The underground economy of solitary confinement

#53

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #13

The US prison system is so brutal and things like solitary confinement, which is torture, totally normalised. We need to call attention to these things.

The knowledge and attention to the subject is there, the problem is that a large swath of the US is authoritarian and celebrates such brutal treatment.

Re: The underground economy of solitary confinement

#54

Post by kingcharles »

I did three stints in solitary. First for writing to my wife and explaining how I traded coffee for stamped envelopes, which got me an extortion charge. On the last day of my "sentence" in solitary I had my trial and was found "not guilty" of the charge. Of course, it was like Alice in Wonderland, I did my time then got my trial.

(during this time in solitary though they went through all my property and figured out I'd hacked the commissary system to send emails through the jail and were mad about that)

Second time I was framed by a guard. It was an internal thing called "Operation Cleansweep". The idea was to frame all the jailhouse lawyers on false charges and send them to solitary and then get access to all the legal work in their cells to go through. They came and threw contraband in my cell in front of everyone, then cuffed me up and off to solitary again. [I found out about the operation because I fought for the details through FOIA and got all the "Intelligence Unit" reports. Idiots wrote this shit down. Usually the government isn't that dumb. For instance, this is a response I got to a request for documents concerning a big investigation in the prosecutor's office here in Chicago recently: "After speaking with SAO personnel most knowledgeable about your request including those active in the internal investigation, there is no written or electronic report of the internal investigation into the Adam Toledo bond proffer incident." LOL]

Third time in solitary was because I took two seconds too long trading some rice for a chicken nugget at lunch. Disobeying the guard who told me to "hurry up". Another stint in solitary!

You start with ZERO in solitary in most jails, and work your way up. I sued to get the rules changed, because on the first day you also spent it naked. They would strip search you on arrival and then leave you until you could persuade a guard the next day to get you clothes. [they remotely popped my cell on my first day once for a visit, so I ran out, sans clothing, all the way to the visit until the guards freaked out and were forced to get me clothes]

As the article says, even toilet paper can be a bitch to get. My first time I didn't know anything. My second time through I managed to snatch a book up off a table as I was being dragged to my cell, so I had something to read. Then I learned to "finesse" the guards into getting me things: toilet paper, soap, pencil.

You're not allowed commissary in most solitary. The first time I was in I requested my bin of legal work, which they have to provide. But dum-dums gave me my commissary bin instead. So I spent three days eating the whole lot before they realized their mistake and ran in and took my (now empty) bin and swapped it out.

You get lots of reading done in solitary. I read 800 books in jail.

AMA

Re: The underground economy of solitary confinement

#55

Post by mgkimsal »

randomacct8162 wrote: post #31
mgkimsal wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had to go search for it, but YC funded a company - https://www.70millionjobs.com - that focuses on felon-friendly companies hiring.

I won't sling mud, but the jobs are the same you can already get as a felon (construction, kitchen, hospitality, factory, etc) and I had a negative experience with my interaction there Thank you for looking though. I think it's important to offer felons the chance to get a decent job in a proper career field too. There's one organization doing this called "Underdog Devs": https://www.underdogdevs.org https://twitter.…

I did see 'tech' jobs there, but... perhaps they're just 'general recruiter' posts that are mixed in? I search for 'php' and found a bunch of job links come back...

Re: The underground economy of solitary confinement

#56

Post by bobbylarrybobby »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #13

The US prison system is so brutal and things like solitary confinement, which is torture, totally normalised. We need to call attention to these things.

Well one issue is that people who have been in prison often cannot ever vote again, so the only people left to make decisions about the prison system are those who have never experienced it firsthand

Re: The underground economy of solitary confinement

#57

Post by btdmaster »

randomacct8162 wrote: post #32
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #27

What is the alternative to solitary confinement? There are some people who are a persistent threat and menace to others. There are 3 ways that society has dealt with them: Execution Banishment Imprisonment We are trying to do away with execution, so that is not a real alternative. Banishment really doesn't work in the modern, connected world. That leaves imprisonment. However, within prison, you also have a society,…

FWIW, I am not against the death penalty. It makes much more economic sense than life in prison (it costs ludicrous amounts of money to house prisoners per-annua) and as someone who has done prison time my personal opinion is I'd rather be killed than face the mental agony of living the rest of my days in there. I'm not sure why so many people are against it or think it's inhumane. I think it's a bit silly considerin…

Side note: the death penalty is more expensive than prison in the way it is currently being used (because of the legal expenses + prison time before the execution takes place), so unless it is done faster (more prone to errors) it does not make financial sense: https://ballotpedia.org/Fact_check/Is_the_death_penalty_more...

Re: The underground economy of solitary confinement

#58

Post by xapata »

malandrew wrote: post #49
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't make apologies for people who choose torture and who chose to participate in said system / culture. It's a job; if they had morals they would quit, whistleblow, or punish colleagues for this behaviour. I can't believe the pay would be THAT good. There's clearly no adequate chain of command or repercussions for this crime.

> they would quit Most prisons exist in places that are economically depressed with few if any other jobs. In some cases, the entire existence of a town revolves around the prison. Quitting is hardly an option when it’s the only real option for putting food on your table and a shelter over your head.

They could leave town. There's always another option.

Re: The underground economy of solitary confinement

#59

Post by kqr »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #37
jopsen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those guards belong in jail themselves... The guards are just the product of a system/culture.

Don't make apologies for people who choose torture and who chose to participate in said system / culture. It's a job; if they had morals they would quit, whistleblow, or punish colleagues for this behaviour. I can't believe the pay would be THAT good. There's clearly no adequate chain of command or repercussions for this crime.

It's not about making apologies. It's the opposite. You can blame the "bad apples" all you want and you will see no improvement whatsoever. You can instead choose to blame structural, systematic failures and get a lot of improvement out of little effort.

Re: The underground economy of solitary confinement

#60

Post by dls2016 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #39
Bradlinc wrote: post #12

Three things occur to me as I read this article: 1) Toilet paper seems like a necessity. 2) In America, we treat our prisoners horribly. We are going to look back on this in a 100 years with the same disdain we look back on slavery. 3) Though I have a hard day a head of me, my life could be far, far worse.

> We are going to look back on this in a 100 years with the same disdain we look back on slavery. We can only hope, but why only in 100 years when 'we' - the people in this thread and a lot of others - already look at it with disdain. But there's others - lawmakers, the private prison industry, etc - who think this is just fine and dandy, because it fills their pockets and is a legal avenue into a slave labor force (…

> slave labor force

Remember kids, slavery is still constitutionally enshrined in the US as a form of punishment. No need to "look back" at slavery!

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