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Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

reuters.com

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Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#931

Post by herbst »

brabel wrote: post #220
hwers wrote: post #21

I can't really tell what's going on here. Is the EU and America supposed to be helping out but it's all promises without real counter attacks? Is this just the calm before the storm as russia places their troops in the right spots while everyone looks on? Anyone who's smarter than me who could enlighten me?

It's interesting that people think that when an enemy country (as most people in the west think of Russia) attacks a neutral country (after endless warnings and the ocupation of a sizable part of its territory several years prior, so it's not like this came out of the blue), that they should intervene as if they were the world police who decides who can attack who. Or some kind of righteous peace force who is above i…

People also totally ignore that there is an ongoing war for 8 years now in Ukraine and NATO intervention so far only kept the situation alive by Providing weapons to a side that actively disabled some basic human rights 7 years ago with many national Human right issues the whole time. 14000 deaths.

It is by far not as one sided and simple as many make it to be

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#932

Post by SpelingBeeChamp »

DocTomoe wrote: post #857
beloch wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine is not a NATO member, but Poland is. If Russia attacks a member of NATO then all members of NATO are obligated to join in defence militarily . Russia can attack non-NATO countries and intimidate NATO into doing nothing, but to attack a NATO member would automatically bring the whole alliance into the war. The whole point of alliances like NATO is to prevent countries from being picked off by a bully the way U…

> If Russia attacks a member of NATO then all members of NATO are obligated to join in defence militarily. That's what is commonly believed, but that belief is actually wrong - other NATO members are obligated to - and I quote directly from Article 5 here - "(...) assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, includi…

Is it clear in context that the 'deeming' country is the one being attacked rather than the one deciding how to assist? It doesn't seem totally clear from that quote.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#933

Post by me_me_me »

qwytw wrote: post #870
rasz wrote: post #821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ukraine is not a NATO member, but Poland is. If Russia attacks a member of NATO then all members of NATO are obligated to join in defence militarily. We lived once thru this in 1939. NO one will join in to defend Poland. Germany might even make another deal with Russia to "save EU".

I'm not at all confident Russia could conquer Poland though even if it's left to fight alone (together with the Baltic states). It spends ~65% more on its military than Ukraine, has full access to western tech and way less internal problems (good luck finding any region in poland where > 0.x% of the population would want to join Russia). Even if Russia 'defeats' the Ukrainian military (which I don't think is at all c…

That plus in case of full occupation by Russian forces the partisan attacks will bleed occupation forces for years to come

Once the coffins start to come back to mother Russia domestic support for occupation will plummet even further locally in Russia.

Even in USSR, with censorship and active repression USSR was still bringing back afghan war coffins in the dead of the night.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#934

Post by mcv »

SpelingBeeChamp wrote: post #930
mcv wrote: post #853

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US and Russia did promise to defend Ukraine against nuclear powers in exchange for Ukraine giving their nuclear weapons to Russia in 1994. Now Russia, a nuclear power and one of the signatories to that treaty, broke it by attacking Ukraine, and the US broke it by not defending Ukraine from that aggression, because Russia is waving its nukes around as a threat. The big lesson that the US and Russia are teaching Uk…

>Russia is waving its nukes around as a threat. Really? Has Putin actually said anything about nuclear weapons in the context of this war?

Not explicitly, but that's how many people interpret his threats to NATO countries if they help defend Ukraine.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#935

Post by ohthehugemanate »

dudeinhawaii wrote: post #428

I'm genuinely curious at what point a bully threatening you with MAD can be stopped if you value the existence of your own civilization? Say Russian conquers all of Ukraine and moves troops to the Polish border and parks some tanks a bit inside. What then? Strongly worded essays? If Russia isn't raining hell on Poland, then NATO is forced to .. apply sanctions, make threats, but take no action since the escalation an…

It sounds bad to say it out loud, but MAD was the policy that kept the longest peace among great powers (ie nation states that can project power beyond their borders) in recorded history. The global rate of interstate conflict has been historically low since 1945. I don't like it, but there it is.

It's also worth keeping this in some historical perspective. This war could break a long streak of zero great power wars (depending on definitions and reactions in the west), it's true. But the rate is still historically extremely low. The systems we have for peace, however imperfect, are definitely working.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#936

Post by calsy »

w0de0 wrote: post #748
unclebucknasty wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russian propaganda of the past ~decade has become extremely skilled at sounding reasonable to contrarian thinkers, and at fitting in to the broader Western zeitgeist. RT, less official media - perhaps the FSB itself - now cultivate native intellectuals To some extent it has, but seems to be targeted to a very specific profile. > In any case, I find this more likely than a secret American underground of RIA Novosti…

I'm not quite making any argument, to be honest - definitely not that HN is immune. Just idle observation - conversation :). I do see the spam propaganda, the obvious paid trolls, &tc. We both ignore them, I'm sure, and I ignored them in my comment. I was speaking more specifically of two types I encounter: - The fairly well spoken internet ideologues squirreling away strange rational arguments deep in esoteric threa…

What are you guys rambling on about? One look at my history clearly shows I'm not who you believe me to be. Im simply someone willing to listen to both sides of an argument. I deleted my comment because the collective madness of patriotism takes hold and your either 'with us or against us'. Any view you express that may run against the current narrative can be used against you.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#937

Post by wholinator2 »

pkdpic wrote: post #642
Andrex wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

9/11 x100?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZcZ6eJoxeE Sorry, thread needed some levity.

But does 9/11 times 100 equal 91,100 or 81.818181...?

Yeah, I did the math and it doesn't even equal 91,000/100, which is what it sounded like to me.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#938

Post by calsy »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #671
w0de0 wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russian propaganda of the past ~decade has become extremely skilled at sounding reasonable to contrarian thinkers, and at fitting in to the broader Western zeitgeist. RT, less official media - perhaps the FSB itself - now cultivate native intellectuals (hard not to scare-quote that...) with opinions variously: genuinely pro-Putin, generally anti-liberal-world-order, chaotically damaging to the US polity in their dema…

> Russian propaganda of the past ~decade has become extremely skilled at sounding reasonable to contrarian thinkers, and at fitting in to the broader Western zeitgeist. RT, less official media - perhaps the FSB itself - now cultivate native intellectuals To some extent it has, but seems to be targeted to a very specific profile. > In any case, I find this more likely than a secret American underground of RIA Novosti…

Before you let your imagination run wild, how about you do some basic research, like looking at my history. It's not pretty, but to think I'm some propagandist working with Russia is laughable and just demonstrates the point I made. A comment which I deleted because in these absurd times you need to be lock step with the current narrative or be branded a propagandist, conspiracy theorist or traitor. It's pointless trying to discuss the issue.

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#939

Post by foldr »

dudeinhawaii wrote: post #428

I'm genuinely curious at what point a bully threatening you with MAD can be stopped if you value the existence of your own civilization? Say Russian conquers all of Ukraine and moves troops to the Polish border and parks some tanks a bit inside. What then? Strongly worded essays? If Russia isn't raining hell on Poland, then NATO is forced to .. apply sanctions, make threats, but take no action since the escalation an…

Classic 'salami tactics':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o861Ka9TtT4&t=73s

Re: Chernobyl power plant captured by Russian forces

#940

Post by thecleaner »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #910
thecleaner wrote: post #858

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Where are you stats coming from. ?

World bank is enough for you? The poverty headcount ratio for Russia went from 24.6% in 2002 to 10.7% in 2012, so it's actually a decrease of more than 50% in less than 20 years, even more than what stated by OP above. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SI.POV.DDAY?end=2015&lo...

This stat is from 2012. 9 years old.
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