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Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

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Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#561

Post by light_hue_1 »

gpderetta wrote: post #549
light_hue_1 wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine's goal is not to antagonize Europe. There's on leverage in threatening your friends.

It is certainly a last resort option, but on the face of existential threat, denying Russia a major source of income to finance the war is a legitimate goal. The major point of Nord Stream 2 was to remove this PoF.

That's the wrong perspective. You have to remember that even at the height of the cold war, the Soviet Union was still providing gas to Europe. This has always been the arrangement. Ukraine stopping gas is not denying Russia income. It's denying Europe a critical resource.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#562

Post by raducu »

AlfeG wrote: post #434
raducu wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia does not care about Ukraine joining NATO, Russia has nukes. Russian politicians care about Ukraine being a prospering democracy and a model for russian citizens. That's it.

There is no a lot of democracy in UA. Literally all opposition were shut down or applied sanction. No media other then telegram can work free. There is a big corruption on every level. I dont like Russia or want them been there. But there is no such thing as single united Ukraine. Saying this is literally a crime and "putin propaganda"

There is and there could have been democracy and prosperity like in ALL, ALL of ex-soviet states that joined NATO and EU. All of those countries make Russia look like a shithole. That's what got Putin so enraged.

NATO is a security guarantee without which there can be no foreign investment in this part of the world.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#563

Post by raducu »

robbedpeter wrote: post #316
raducu wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia does not care about Ukraine joining NATO, Russia has nukes. Russian politicians care about Ukraine being a prospering democracy and a model for russian citizens. That's it.

Russian oligarchs care about borders, trade routes, and cargo ships. It's about money and power. Russia obviously doesn't give a rat's ass about democracy, they have their population locked up tight. They expect to move in, battle, secure new territory, deal with stern blabber and a slap on the wrist, and it'll be back to business as usual, with slightly higher profit margins.

Russian oligarchs don't make their money by trade and cargo.

Lol.

Russian oligarchs make their money by robbing Russia and russians. They want to continue undisturbed.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#564

Post by raducu »

Grustaf wrote: post #420
raducu wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia does not care about Ukraine joining NATO, Russia has nukes. Russian politicians care about Ukraine being a prospering democracy and a model for russian citizens. That's it.

The hate Ukraine for its freedoms?

No, they hate all the states that were under their influence and that later joined NATO and EU for leaving them in the dust. Ukraine prospering would be too much for Putin, it would expose his crooked path that he steered Russia.

Russia would be way ahead of Poland had Putin not taken power and made Russia an mafia-oil state.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#565

Post by raducu »

thiagoharry wrote: post #470
mopsi wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ukraine in NATO means US nukes on Russia border, tipping the balance. No, it does not. A number of Eastern European countries are in NATO and none of them have American nuclear weapons. Where does this silly idea come that after joining NATO, American missiles somehow appear in the new member? Modern-day NATO is a cooperation platform for joint exercises etc, not some missile club that starts delivering ICBMs every…

> Modern-day NATO is a cooperation platform for joint exercises etc, not some missile club that starts delivering ICBMs every month. Say that to Libya or Yugoslavia that were attacked. NATO is not exactly just a "defensive agreement" as is being currently propagandized.

Ygoslavia deserved every last bomb it received, they were doing ethnic clensing, ffs.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#566

Post by raducu »

Grustaf wrote: post #423
glogla wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where does this silly idea come that after joining NATO, American missiles somehow appear in the new member? It is not silly idea, it is Russian misinformation. "The corrupt fascist gay West we are under constant attack by wants to put army on our borders," except in nicer words.

They have discussed putting nuclear missiles in Sweden, who isn’t even a member. Plus the US has already been arming Ukraine, hasn’t it?

And? Russia put them in Cuba, and later got them out.

Russia could have asked for this guarantee if it really cared about, it wasn't even a topic of discussion.

Ukraine had nukes and gave them up. Nukes in Ukraine would be such a ridiculous topic that Putin didn't even dare to bring up.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#568

Post by lupire »

lobocinza wrote: post #505
elric wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed ~200k people. Any target worth nuking, (say Nato HQ) will result in millions of casualties. Urbanization & increased population density have many benefits, but they make for mind-bogglingly disastrous targets of nukes. If there's a choice between nukes raining down and between Putin ruling the world, I'll happily choose the latter. No matter the cost, there cannot be a nucl…

Then he will rule the world and nuke regardless because you are weak.

Why would he nuke if he ruled? That has no benefit to him.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#569

Post by raducu »

londons_explore wrote: post #473
amcoastal wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is already bordered by multiple NATO countries. You should not be parroting Kremlin talking points at this time.

> Russia is already bordered by multiple NATO countries And they aren't happy about it. At the time, they weren't in a position to do much about it though.

The risk of NATO using nukes first is 0.

For that to happen they would have to first turn into a tyranical shithole like Russia where an impotent old man can do as he pleases.

They don't start with nukes. They first murder journalists, bomb their own appartments, poison opposition leaders.

They only country in the world which is remotely close to doing a first strike is Russia, and perhaps North Korea.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#570

Post by lupire »

nosianu wrote: post #422
gambiting wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and send a message that says "you can kill American troops without consequences"? And if that's your strategy - why send them there in the first place?

So.... Afghanistan? How many soldiers from several Western nations died there, and of the US in particular? Only to recently withdraw unconditionally and even hand over lots of military equipment to the enemy they had been fighting for decades? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualt...

"fighting for decades" is not shipping some people over to die and then walking away, as was proposed upthread.
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