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Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

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Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#501

Post by masklinn »

cm2187 wrote: post #492
masklinn wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For an other example, nat gas accounts for 13% of germany’s electric production (out of about 600TWh). In accounts for nearly 25% of the primary energy mix (out of about 3700TWh). Even assuming all the gas plants are simple cycle peaking plants with horrid efficiency (say 20% which is extremely low even for peaking plants), electricity still would account for about 40% of germany’s nat gas consumption. In reality, mu…

I think in this case the yearly average load might be misleading. On low wind times the reliance on gas can be much higher.

These are yearly totals, the variations are limited, and more importantly irrelevant to the point.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#502

Post by southerntofu »

yesplorer wrote: post #466
trhway wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realistically Russia can't occupy any significant part of Ukraine, nor Kiev in particular - tens of millions of pissed-off resisting Ukrainians with many taking up arms (on Ukrainian TV they said that they already give arms to such civilians as former police, and Zelenskiy said that they would give arms to all "willing and capable to defend the country") would shake off any army, and any such occupation attempt would…

Afghanistan under Taliban makes your claim invalid.

I don't understand this claim. USA army occupied Afghanistan, organized corruption (oh sorry "privatization of public services") for years and paid masses of informants and mercenaries and still had to stop occupying Afghanistan. Just like France was kicked from Algeria over 50 years ago after countless massacres.

Not that i'm happy with the Taliban regime now that the USA are gone, but this wave of reaction is the logical aftermath of USA policy. Turns out not killing/oppressing millions of people and not destroying their public services could have a much better outcome in terms of "progressive politics".

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#503

Post by realcertify »

jdrc wrote: post #493
realcertify wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right about large majority of Russians being complicit, and right when saying "what seems to be a dictator going mad". Because it's not a dictator going mad, in fact Putin has quite clear goals and is quite predictable. He repeatedly was warning the West about the balance of power being skewed in their favor and Russia's interests being neglected since 2007. I'm not going to get into much details, and I feel…

I 'm watching RT to try to understand the russian propaganda, and it seems even the reporters are caught by surprise by the scale of the invasion. What you said does not justify launching a full scale attack against the entirety of ukraine. It does seem like a madman doing mad things thinking this is the 1930s again. As if occupying ukraine would solve the problem you re mentioning...

This doesn't look much different from the US attacking Iraq or Yugoslavia. All these attacks have serious reasons behind them (and those reasons are not protecting poor children as mass media would tell you).

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#504

Post by XorNot »

gambiting wrote: post #113
misja111 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And when those American soldiers are killed by Russian missiles, do you then declare full on war on Russia You are assuming here that Russia would be willing to cause a World War by attacking those American soldiers. > as a Pole the risk of actually being involved in military operations is making me extremely uncomfortable right now. But the alternative, to let Russia have Ukraine, will become very uncomfortable in…

>>You are assuming here that Russia would be willing to cause a World War by attacking those American soldiers. I think Russia has been "calling the bluff" of the west for a long time. Attacking American soldiers on Ukrainian soil to send a message "look what I can do, you aren't going to attack me back because you know what it will cost you" would be entirely within the standard Russian strategy. And it would place…

It's not NATO -> nuclear war, but it can head that way though. NATO is currently desperately trying to not get into a limited-scale shooting war with Russia, because that's an escalation game which then depends on the other side recognizing the scope of the conflict.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#505

Post by lobocinza »

elric wrote: post #115
d3ckard wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Otherwise you let Putin have Ukraine and basically show your ass. We’re all afraid of nukes, but that fear can’t make us allow for everything. I am a Pole as well and also very uncomfortable. I also believe Nato should intervene in Ukraine. Otherwise, we just wait until it’s our turn.

The nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed ~200k people. Any target worth nuking, (say Nato HQ) will result in millions of casualties. Urbanization & increased population density have many benefits, but they make for mind-bogglingly disastrous targets of nukes. If there's a choice between nukes raining down and between Putin ruling the world, I'll happily choose the latter. No matter the cost, there cannot be a nucl…

Then he will rule the world and nuke regardless because you are weak.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#506

Post by WJW »

trasz wrote: post #445
WJW wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I'm against nuclear, but getting to full energy independence with nuclear seems like it would need several decades as well. For example, the Blue Castle project in Utah ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Castle_Project ) started on the drawing board in 2007, started looking for contractors in 2016, hopes to start construction in 2023 and hopes to be fully operational in 2030. That is if construction is not…

Most of the rest of the world is China, and they are building some 20 nuclear power plants at the moment.

China is at ~1.4 billion people, not even close to "most of the rest of the world". There are about 7.9 billion people alive atm, so that would make more than 80% of the worlds' population being outside China.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#508

Post by sg47 »

thiagoharry wrote: post #470
mopsi wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ukraine in NATO means US nukes on Russia border, tipping the balance. No, it does not. A number of Eastern European countries are in NATO and none of them have American nuclear weapons. Where does this silly idea come that after joining NATO, American missiles somehow appear in the new member? Modern-day NATO is a cooperation platform for joint exercises etc, not some missile club that starts delivering ICBMs every…

> Modern-day NATO is a cooperation platform for joint exercises etc, not some missile club that starts delivering ICBMs every month. Say that to Libya or Yugoslavia that were attacked. NATO is not exactly just a "defensive agreement" as is being currently propagandized.

It's Ukraine's choice to do whatever they want.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#509

Post by jdrc »

realcertify wrote: post #503
jdrc wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 'm watching RT to try to understand the russian propaganda, and it seems even the reporters are caught by surprise by the scale of the invasion. What you said does not justify launching a full scale attack against the entirety of ukraine. It does seem like a madman doing mad things thinking this is the 1930s again. As if occupying ukraine would solve the problem you re mentioning...

This doesn't look much different from the US attacking Iraq or Yugoslavia. All these attacks have serious reasons behind them (and those reasons are not protecting poor children as mass media would tell you).

i just dont get this mindset in which people draw up ahistorical parallels to make up excuses for something. You stated that the invasion has something to do with geopolitical danger for russia, and was not in retaliation for what US did in Iraq. Is it nationalism? Sense of isolation? Feeling of being denigrated/humiliated by the west? Just blatant personal cult?

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#510

Post by realcertify »

jdrc wrote: post #509
realcertify wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't look much different from the US attacking Iraq or Yugoslavia. All these attacks have serious reasons behind them (and those reasons are not protecting poor children as mass media would tell you).

i just dont get this mindset in which people draw up ahistorical parallels to make up excuses for something. You stated that the invasion has something to do with geopolitical danger for russia, and was not in retaliation for what US did in Iraq. Is it nationalism? Sense of isolation? Feeling of being denigrated/humiliated by the west? Just blatant personal cult?

My point is that in all of those cases there were reasons behind the attacks. You are not calling Bush or Clinton crazy for what they did right? Same for Russians.
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