Live data from Hacker News

Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

twitter.com

121–130 of 613 posts

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#122
post #89
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The position is understandable because Russia is playing a Grand Strategy Game in the past, and doesn't want the enemy ( NATO) to be at all their borders. Justified? Right? Humane? Absolutely not.

That is not understandable. "I don't like nato at the border, therefore I will push my border toward nato". Russian "nato is ennemy" exists, because Russia wants nato be ennemy. It prevents further expansion.

Of those two, Russia and NATO, the only expansion since the end of the cold war and the fall of the USSR was done by NATO. That's just a historical fact. Which doesn't justify anything, but explains a lot.

All that is purely academic now so, with people in Ukraine dying over this shit.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in the presence of rational actors this would be avoided, but here we are anyway. A single nuclear strike would be met with retaliation and it would escalate to mutually assured destruction like clockwork. A lot of optimists thought Putin would not invade Ukraine because of the risk and that he was posturing. It would be similarly optimistic to presume rational actor decision processes. That may be a strategy he…

> We are on the knife's edge of disaster here. Not even remotely true. Demonstrably. The worst thing on the table right now are economic sanctions. Putin knew these were going to happen, and evidently thought the trouble was worth it. In fact, over the past few weeks, the major powers have confirmed over and over and over again that there would be no military response at all .

and so did putin say he would not go into ukraine. not everybody says what they would do in advance.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#124
post #95

I'm curious, do folks here think Putin would have still invaded if Ukraine didn't consider joining NATO? While yes, Putin very much wants his old USSR back, it seems he's doing this in response to potentially having more NATO missiles on his borders. He's basically been saying "fuck around and find out" since 2008 when we said Ukraine would have the option of joining NATO.

I would think so, Russian geopolitical textbooks have been saying for a long time that an "independent Ukraine doesn't make sense". Read here the excerpts what it says about UK, and US. Makes an interesting read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#126
post #121

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/rus Russia’s exports are >50% oil and gas products. The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables.

Realistically we’d need to do it faster than switching to renewables allowed.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev And when those American soldiers are killed by Russian missiles, do you then declare full on war on Russia, and we basically all die? Because like....there is no other good option out of this you know. By placing American(or NATO) troops and assets in the harms way, you need to be prepared for what you are going to do if those…

> And when those American soldiers are killed by Russian missiles, do you then declare full on war on Russia You are assuming here that Russia would be willing to cause a World War by attacking those American soldiers. > as a Pole the risk of actually being involved in military operations is making me extremely uncomfortable right now. But the alternative, to let Russia have Ukraine, will become very uncomfortable in…

Look at the long history of authoritarian leaders thinking they could act without triggering escalation, e.g. Taliban, Saddam, and consider again if you want to take the risk that Putin will be rational enough to avoid further escalation and the consequences of doing so given the failure to defeat even the Taliban.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#128
post #118

Why does Putin try to invade parts of Ukraine ? What's its interest ? Is it economical ? is it for interior politics ? is it to destabilize Europe ? does someone can conjecture a bit ?

Putin's opinion is that the eastern regions of Ukraine that have been controlled by Russian troops for years now and have separatists there vying for annexation by Russia belong to Russia, not Ukraine (after all, they once did).

Ukraine doesn't agree. It's also widely theorized (basically fact) that Putin has fomented revolution and supports separatist movements to gin up trouble and incite problems in those areas to further make his case.

It's a land grab, and possibly a precursor to something much more. But only time will tell.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#129
post #13

Non-error-message link: https://birdsite.xanny.family/EstonianGovt/status/1496728085... Text, 57 minutes ago: "#Estonia unequivocally condemns #Russia's military attack on #Ukraine and we have decided to launch #NATO consultations under Article 4 of the North Atlantic Treaty with Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and other Allies." Crepuscular photo of some buildings and link to https://valitsus.ee/en/news/estonian-governmen…

Previous World Wars were not one-sided. Pretty much the majority of the developed world (probably all of the developed world?) is against Russia right now.

Even China isn’t happy.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#130
post #61
post #46

ok, so ELI15, what is Article 4 and Article 5?

From the official text[1]: - Article 4: The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened. - Article 5: The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed a…

>consult

Comments in this submission say that consult is a light word for what's happening

Post reply on HN