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Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

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Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#61

Post by usrme »

agilob wrote: post #46

ok, so ELI15, what is Article 4 and Article 5?

From the official text[1]:

- Article 4: The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened.

- Article 5: The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them [...] will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith [...] such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

---

[1]: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.ht...

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#63

Post by polotics »

selfhoster11 wrote: post #40
darebak wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that any of the world wars started out of small things, can you clarify?

World War 1 started because a guy was assassinated, for one. The tension was there, but the assassination was what set everything into motion.

Many historical analysis of the start of WW1 highlight the slow communication and mobilization processes as the main cause of why European military leaders thought they had to move first, just in case the other side had already started and they hadn't heard... Another way to see it is that oligarchies of the time thought it expedient to have yet another 19th century war, and didn't factor in advances in technology: machine guns, artillery, chemical warfare... A bit like with drones and AI now: the outcome and shape of the Ukraine conflict wil inform us all of the specific bloody taste of 21st century resource wars. To anyone reading this in countries dependent on Ukrainian wheat imports (eg. North-Africa) Stock up on the pasta!

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#64

Post by sofixa »

reitanqild wrote: post #33
darebak wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I am well versed in European history, thank you for your snarky comment. There's no reason to believe some local conflict will undermine "democracies" all over Europe, notwithstanding the media that is always preying on people's fears.

Sorry I didn't realize that. There are actually a lot of people shouting loudly who never read history. I thought the salami slicing pattern was obvious for everyone to see now. Since it is not point is that to me and many others the situation looks very similar to what happened just before WWII.

The difference between now and WW2 is that all of Europe west of Ukraine ( excluding Switzerland), and most of it north, are in a single military alliance, which has nuclear weapons ( and France also does, not under the NATO chain of command).

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#65

Post by 2143 »

CodeArtisan wrote: post #53
Hokusai wrote: post #11

This reminds me of each time people criticises the European Union for "condemning" something. Big organizations do things step by step. First you talk, then you act. Even Russia prepared a prerecorded pantomime of a discussion before acting. This are the gears moving and is no small thing, it sends a message and prepares for the worse.

Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 to "enforce peace". Same with Crimea in 2014. Then Luhansk and Donetsk a few days ago. Now the rest of Ukraine. Discussion with Putin is futile. When Russia started sending troops next to the Ukraine borders, NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev. It's too late now.

> NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev

And Russia would've been scared and retreated.

Sarcasm aside, all that would've done is accelerate the whole invasion procedure.

And then the 2000 troops would be killed by Russia.

Then America/NATO will retaliate.

That'll be the endgame.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#66

Post by hnarn »

bendhoefs wrote: post #41
darebak wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that any of the world wars started out of small things, can you clarify?

I'm reminded of a dead archduke and burning Reichstag...

Surely you’re not insinuating that the fire at the Reichstag was the cause of WW2

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#67

Post by rightbyte »

reitanqild wrote: post #37
watwut wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are referring to Germany 1936, it did not resembled modern western democracies at all. It was not established democracy at all prior. It was forced into democracy it never wanted after loosing war. Prior, it was heavily militarized some-constitutional monarchy. Their democracy was failing mess the whole time. If you are referring to something else, be concrete.

Thanks for pointing out. I'm comparing Germanys "helpful" occupations of neighboring countries "to help the poor Germans there against abuse" inhabitants to Putin's attempt to occupy Ukraine "to protect all the poor Russians there against genocide."

There was no German enclave uprising in Poland with an 8 year stalemate. The situation in Ukraine has been very unstable.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#68

Post by sofixa »

CodeArtisan wrote: post #53
Hokusai wrote: post #11

This reminds me of each time people criticises the European Union for "condemning" something. Big organizations do things step by step. First you talk, then you act. Even Russia prepared a prerecorded pantomime of a discussion before acting. This are the gears moving and is no small thing, it sends a message and prepares for the worse.

Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 to "enforce peace". Same with Crimea in 2014. Then Luhansk and Donetsk a few days ago. Now the rest of Ukraine. Discussion with Putin is futile. When Russia started sending troops next to the Ukraine borders, NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev. It's too late now.

> When Russia started sending troops next to the Ukraine borders, NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev. It's too late now.

That would have escalated the situation further and would have helped Putin's narrative, like the Russian mobilisation in WWI which only pushed things over the edge.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#69

Post by gattilorenz »

selfhoster11 wrote: post #40
darebak wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that any of the world wars started out of small things, can you clarify?

World War 1 started because a guy was assassinated, for one. The tension was there, but the assassination was what set everything into motion.

"a guy" to describe the future emperor of the Austria-Hungary is an understatement. It's like saying that the world was shocked because in 1963 a guy was shot. Yes, technically true, but...

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#70

Post by khazhoux »

Giorgi wrote: post #59
chinathrow wrote: post #43

It makes me sad, angry and confused that Putin is showing force. What an absolute madman.

"showing force" is such a light way to describe it, this is full scale invasion into Europe, with the target to annihilate whole country while impotent civilized west watches it unfold in the fears that they may be next.

It’s not so much fear they may be next. It’s clearly a hesitance to engagage in a full-scale global war.
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