EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#321

Post by ajsnigrutin » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 5:47 PM UTC

rndgermandude wrote: post #296

ipatec wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

last time I checked countries like Romania (E Europe) had the smallest pay gap in Europe. the issue is usually in countries like Germany, Switzerland or Netherlands.

It's also important to consider what people mean exactly when they talk about the "pay gap". Here in Germany, the SPD (social democrats) candidate for chancellor in 2018, Schulz, tried to make the gender pay gap into one of the core issues of his campaign with posters saying women "make 21% less while working 100%"[0]. While this wasn't outright wrong, it used what the Statisches Bundesamt (official state office of s…

In slovenia, they just said women earned less (94.1% of the mens pay), but ignored even the hours worked, with the data in the same database.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#322

Post by Katzmann1983 » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 5:48 PM UTC

Money quote: "... more than two-thirds of them have said they are in favour of the publication of average wages by job type and gender at their company (64 %)."

Since when are 64% more than two-thirs?

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#323

Post by Katzmann1983 » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 5:50 PM UTC

marsRoverDev wrote: post #127

tialaramex wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history Aw, that was one of the fun moments when getting my current job. I moved from private sector to public sector and they're like "You understand that the previous pay you listed is more than our boss's boss, the director of our entire org unit gets paid right?". Yes, yes I do. Which is why when you asked at interview "Why do you want this role…

The problem at least in France is that prospective employers will demand your pay slips from your previous job. If you are early in your career, they will use this to depress your wages as much as possible, making arguments like "well, we can't just give you a 40% uplift". So if your first employer screws you, the ones that follow can as well. Personally, I would just forge one with a much higher pay level - but most…

Photoshop to the rescue!

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#324

Post by Anderkent » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 5:50 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #253

andai wrote: post #96

My admittedly limited understanding of the gender pay gap is that it is based on gender differences in interests (eg. career-wise), differences in willingness to work long hours (especially with age), and differences in temperament, ie. women on the whole having lower assertiveness and thus being less likely to ask for higher salaries and raises. The "equal work" part takes care of the first two points, ie. the type…

> less likely to ask for higher salaries and raises. Of all the apologetics around pay gap, I think this is the one that many people could agree is the least fair. The company knows you're worth more, they can feasibly pay you more, they pay someone similarly skilled and talented more. But they do not simply because of a conversation at the very beginning of accepting a role (and once a year). Talk about an abusive a…

> The company knows you're worth more, they can feasibly pay you more, they pay someone similarly skilled and talented more. But they do not simply because of a conversation at the very beginning of accepting a role (and once a year). Talk about an abusive angle.

is this abusive?

the company is not your friend, it is always going to pay you as little as it can that still keeps you working there happily.

agreed that companies tend to fail to adjust comp to actually keep people happy & working there, and in many places this leads to people leaving, but this I would say is exactly because the company doesn't know you're worth more

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#325

Post by craigie » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 5:54 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #48

aborsy wrote: post #3

Honestly, it’s going to be embarrassing with these low salaries when we socialize with non EU colleagues!

I used to think this (as a euro), then I met an American and he explained that he ended up better off in Europe on a "lower" salary because he hadn't considered the hidden costs of living in the USA. He claimed (though I'm certainly no expert) that you have to do your own taxes and set aside money for that; he also claimed that "sales tax" had local, state and federal taxes applied, so while it varies from state to s…

Also I bet his healthcare costs were a lot higher in USA.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#326

Post by paxys » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 5:56 PM UTC

rietta wrote: post #79

tialaramex wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history Aw, that was one of the fun moments when getting my current job. I moved from private sector to public sector and they're like "You understand that the previous pay you listed is more than our boss's boss, the director of our entire org unit gets paid right?". Yes, yes I do. Which is why when you asked at interview "Why do you want this role…

Not quite the same, but when asked by a State agency what it would take for to go on full time I gave a number and was told that is more than the Governor makes. My response was well he also gets a house! We had a good laugh together.

The response should be "sure, but it's a lot less than what the football coach at the state university makes". This perception that it's a government job so it cannot pay competitive wages needs to end. Only then will the quality of services provided by the state improve.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#327

Post by d0gsg0w00f » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 5:56 PM UTC

waffleiron wrote: post #183

jimbob45 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you’re on an assembly line, there is no such thing as “equal work”. Several of my colleagues and I share the same title, yet the women with that title objectively produce less than the men and absolutely deserve less pay (at my company). Is that because of sexism? Or because we judge the individual, not the gender? This seems like a backdoor for Socialism where this backwards logic is used to justify paying ev…

>people who are massively productive end up subsidizing those who are useless. They already do, you are subsidising owners/shareholders a lot more than you'll ever subsidise your "useless" colleagues.

You act like being an investor is like a secret society where everyone is making easy money and the workers are the fools. Investing is a major risk and sometimes fails spectacularly.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#328

Post by conradfr » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 5:56 PM UTC

marsRoverDev wrote: post #127

tialaramex wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history Aw, that was one of the fun moments when getting my current job. I moved from private sector to public sector and they're like "You understand that the previous pay you listed is more than our boss's boss, the director of our entire org unit gets paid right?". Yes, yes I do. Which is why when you asked at interview "Why do you want this role…

The problem at least in France is that prospective employers will demand your pay slips from your previous job. If you are early in your career, they will use this to depress your wages as much as possible, making arguments like "well, we can't just give you a 40% uplift". So if your first employer screws you, the ones that follow can as well. Personally, I would just forge one with a much higher pay level - but most…

It never happened to me in 20+ years of working in France.

I've also almost always lied about my previous pay when asked (which recently has been less than before for some reason) to better match what I was seeking.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#329

Post by BadCookie » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 5:57 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #253

andai wrote: post #96

My admittedly limited understanding of the gender pay gap is that it is based on gender differences in interests (eg. career-wise), differences in willingness to work long hours (especially with age), and differences in temperament, ie. women on the whole having lower assertiveness and thus being less likely to ask for higher salaries and raises. The "equal work" part takes care of the first two points, ie. the type…

> less likely to ask for higher salaries and raises. Of all the apologetics around pay gap, I think this is the one that many people could agree is the least fair. The company knows you're worth more, they can feasibly pay you more, they pay someone similarly skilled and talented more. But they do not simply because of a conversation at the very beginning of accepting a role (and once a year). Talk about an abusive a…

From the discussions I've heard among C-level executives at a <500 person company, it's simply accepted that tech people will move to new jobs after a year or two. There's nothing they can do about it, they say, so we just have to scale up our hiring efforts! The thought that maybe they should do something to retain people is not taken seriously. No matter how many times I expressed concern about the potential loss of specific individuals with specialized (won over many years) knowledge of the codebase and the product, my concerns were always met with plans to scale up hiring—despite how little luck they'd had with those attempts so far. Last I heard, they decided to offshore, but assured us they would only accept the best of the best from [foreign country]. I ended up leaving also, so it's no longer my problem. :)

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#330

Post by ajsnigrutin » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 5:58 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #253

andai wrote: post #96

My admittedly limited understanding of the gender pay gap is that it is based on gender differences in interests (eg. career-wise), differences in willingness to work long hours (especially with age), and differences in temperament, ie. women on the whole having lower assertiveness and thus being less likely to ask for higher salaries and raises. The "equal work" part takes care of the first two points, ie. the type…

> less likely to ask for higher salaries and raises. Of all the apologetics around pay gap, I think this is the one that many people could agree is the least fair. The company knows you're worth more, they can feasibly pay you more, they pay someone similarly skilled and talented more. But they do not simply because of a conversation at the very beginning of accepting a role (and once a year). Talk about an abusive a…

But negotiating is a part of doing any business. Lets say your roof starts leaking... you're willing to pay a lot to have it fixed because the consequences will be very bad very very soon... but you still call around, ask a couple of companies/tradesmen for the price, and choose the best price/performance one, while hoping there wont be any heavy rain before they're able to fix it.

If all of them said twice the price, you'd still have to pay... three times the price too. If it's something you're unable to do by yourself, and if not doing it makes it even worse, you basically have no choice. This applies in the same way to job openings.

The no-negotiating theory would just mean that employers would be fighting for women employees if they were indeed cheaper for the same work output, until the competition would bring the prices up to the men levels.