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EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

europarl.europa.eu

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Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#241

Post by exdsq »

tialaramex wrote: post #18
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

> Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history Aw, that was one of the fun moments when getting my current job. I moved from private sector to public sector and they're like "You understand that the previous pay you listed is more than our boss's boss, the director of our entire org unit gets paid right?". Yes, yes I do. Which is why when you asked at interview "Why do you want this role…

Hahaha I got this once - I was working for a startup in the Bay Area remotely from my place in Oxford and then wanted to see what interesting jobs existed in the local area. There is a small cluster of space startups nearby so I applied to one of those through a recruiter. He didn't seem to understand why I was looking to go from a job paying ~$200k to ~$50k (Oxford does not pay developers well at all!) and saying "Because I want to have my code go to space" didn't seem to be a good enough answer.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#242

Post by andy_ppp »

tialaramex wrote: post #18
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

> Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history Aw, that was one of the fun moments when getting my current job. I moved from private sector to public sector and they're like "You understand that the previous pay you listed is more than our boss's boss, the director of our entire org unit gets paid right?". Yes, yes I do. Which is why when you asked at interview "Why do you want this role…

I read somewhere pay transparency just lowers the amount of pay for disagreeable people who try to earn more. It makes things cheaper for businesses in general because it's harder to get a rise.

Nobody has ever been able to define what equal pay for equal work means because every human being is different (skills, work ethic, ease of working with them, timeliness, negotiation skills, assertiveness, leadership ability etc. etc). So I can understand businesses playing it safe and just paying everybody less than trying to keep people who are good but more demanding of higher salaries.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#243

Post by fleddr »

In this proposal, I dislike the very heavy and singular emphasis on gender. In my country, the Netherlands, when accounting for hours worked and the field people work in, the gap is about 5%. Some theorize part of this remaining small gap is men more aggressively negotiating, but I'm unsure. In any case it's pretty much a solved problem.

Even more if you consider the trend. girls/women dominate in higher education and the breadwinner model is soon to be flipped. Add to that the fact that in some fields, women are now favored to balance the headcount in terms of diversity.

Sometimes in extreme ways even. The university of Eindhoven has stopped considering men altogether in their hiring of professors. Imagine being an absolute guru in your field, fully qualified and wanting to passionately teach at this very high level. But you can't...because you have a penis.

None of this is to say that no work remains in this area, but I openly wonder if legislation is proportional to the issue at hand, if there's even an issue in the first place. The legislation seems distrustful of businesses, assuming there's some secret plot against women progressing.

I frankly find this type of regulation insulting and degrading to women and minorities. It creates this image that society is strongly working against you at every level, which is vastly overstating things. It also constantly signals to you that you're a helpless creature with no agency, you require special help with every interaction in society, as you can definitely not make it on your own.

It must feel terrible to constantly be reminded of the fact that just your gender defines you. You're not a talented female programmer that is creative and a great communicator. No, you're a woman. A special case. It must feel even worse to constantly have to wonder where you've been "helped" in your career and if you're just a diversity token. Did you get that raise based on performance or because it looks good on the Excel sheet sent to the EU?

We're even at risk of making nuclear objects out of women. Businesses and male colleagues being scared of them. For example, a recent study showed that female founders do not get useful critical feedback from VCs whilst male founders get harsh but useful feedback.

I guess the VCs are scared. Is this what we want in the work place, male-female interactions not based on good intent but based on fear and mistrust? Imagine being a woman and having a bad week. At the end of the week your male manager says: "best week ever, proud of you". Would you at all feel taken serious?

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#244

Post by sz4kerto »

giantg2 wrote: post #220
andai wrote: post #96

My admittedly limited understanding of the gender pay gap is that it is based on gender differences in interests (eg. career-wise), differences in willingness to work long hours (especially with age), and differences in temperament, ie. women on the whole having lower assertiveness and thus being less likely to ask for higher salaries and raises. The "equal work" part takes care of the first two points, ie. the type…

I agree the gender wage gap is generally an issue at the aggregate level due to individual choices. I disagree with the language you use later in the comment (fought, won, given). Negotiation skills shouldn't drive compensation. Value to the company should. If someone is doing the same work and making the same value, then they are earning their salary. Differences in pay can be explained by documenting the difference…

> Negotiation skills shouldn't drive compensation. Value to the company should.

What percentage of the per-employee revenue do employees deserve? Negotiation is the way of establishing this, and 'value' is only one part of the equation.

Similarly: price of products on the market are not established based on how valuable that product is to the buyer. That's only one factor.

I understand the appeeal of what you're saying, but we don't have many good examples of it working well.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#245

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

andy_ppp wrote: post #242
tialaramex wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history Aw, that was one of the fun moments when getting my current job. I moved from private sector to public sector and they're like "You understand that the previous pay you listed is more than our boss's boss, the director of our entire org unit gets paid right?". Yes, yes I do. Which is why when you asked at interview "Why do you want this role…

I read somewhere pay transparency just lowers the amount of pay for disagreeable people who try to earn more. It makes things cheaper for businesses in general because it's harder to get a rise. Nobody has ever been able to define what equal pay for equal work means because every human being is different (skills, work ethic, ease of working with them, timeliness, negotiation skills, assertiveness, leadership ability…

>I read somewhere pay transparency just lowers the amount of pay for disagreeable people who try to earn more. It makes things cheaper for businesses in general because it's harder to get a rise.

Then wouldn't you see businesses fighting for it instead of against it?

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#246

Post by maerF0x0 »

Gareth321 wrote: post #205
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, no it's not, big engineering firms (google, facebook, etc) have formalized job titles and 'ranks' and provide a clear path for advancement - and they publish pay ranges for those titles/ranks.

I will paste the same reply to the other, similar comment: I'm glad you related it to my industry because I can assure you that not every L3 in Google contributes the same value to the company. They have vastly different backgrounds, education, experience, and aptitudes. Some are willing to work 80 hour weeks. Some aren't. Some are very skilled in technologies which aren't in-demand and don't currently generate a lot…

The only way I've seen this been well handled is to break out the value adding concepts to "bonuses" or add'l comp for details like:

"we give people and extra $24k per year if they do oncall rotation" and we give "x% more to those who work more and contribute more"

otherwise once it becomes public it turns into infighting of "we're both L3s, why do they get more?" (ignoring that one of them leaves early 2-3x a week to care for their child, or is a single worker with nothing better to do than contribute and thus does more than others) ...

They're simple concepts, but hard to get people to be grown ups about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KSryJXDpZo

Also people psychologically overestimate their contributions and underestimate others... Has a lot of application in both the workplace and in intimate relationships.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#247

Post by baybal2 »

esnard wrote: post #236
marsRoverDev wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem at least in France is that prospective employers will demand your pay slips from your previous job. If you are early in your career, they will use this to depress your wages as much as possible, making arguments like "well, we can't just give you a 40% uplift". So if your first employer screws you, the ones that follow can as well. Personally, I would just forge one with a much higher pay level - but most…

Reminder: forgery / use of forged documents is forbidden in France, as per article 441-1 of the penal code. A man was recently sentenced to 4 months of jail time because he lied about his salary to rent an apartment. [0] [0]: https://www.capital.fr/economie-politique/un-locataire-conda...

There used to be another country which made resumes into a legal document: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeitsbuch#/media/Datei%3AA...

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#248

Post by drstewart »

yladiz wrote: post #116
drstewart wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, none of that is true. There is no federal sales tax, and sales tax in most places didn't ever come close to 10%, let alone 20%. In many states it's 0. Filing your taxes is free. Maybe you can spend $30 if you want to use turbo tax to do it for you. Any job with these salary differences provides great health care and benefits. Cars exist in Europe, I know many software developers there that have them. Why people…

Have you ever filed your taxes by hand? The system is set up to basically force you to use a tool, and many tools aren’t free, especially if your income is above a certain amount. While not every point in the parent is fully accurate, dismissing all of them does a disservice to the point that the hidden costs do add up and generally you aren’t as well off in USA as you would think based on salary alone.

Yes. I file by hand every year using Free Fillable Forms.

Am I saying it's a good system? No. Would I ever factor it into compensation when moving abroad? Also no.

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