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EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

europarl.europa.eu

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Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#201

Post by Cthulhu_ »

yoden wrote: post #168
quietbritishjim wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't work very well because if you have a large range then most candidates would be disappointed if they got towards the bottom end, even if that made pratical sense. Maybe you could mitigate this by making the range even larger at the bottom end, below the minimum that you would ever pay, but then you'd put off the best people (who are the people that you most want to avoid putting off).

Why would the best candidates be put off by a low minimum? Their salary isn't going to have anything to do with the minimum. If anything, the best candidates should prefer a wide range. That would mean there is more opportunity for them to distinguish themselves beyond just "years served".

I don't have a problem with wide pay ranges for the same job as long as it's detailed - e.g. "job X with 1 year of experience pays this much, job X with 10 years of experience pays that much". It HAS to be made transparent, else people will just troll with a range of "minimum wage" to "trillions per second".

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#202

Post by giantg2 »

mrkstu wrote: post #134
iso1631 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is I spend time applying for a job which claims a "competitive" salary for a "network architect", and eventually find it's in the 35-45k range "depending on skills" Those companies then run off to government saying "we can't employ anyone" Fortunately more and more job listings on linked in are listing ballpark salaries so it's easy to ignore them, there's a few coming up which are reasonable salaries for…

I assume you're not in the USA? As a network architect, even non-coastal jobs are easily had for $120,000 and go up from there...

I don't think that's true at all. If it were so easy, why don't I have one? More people are paid below $110k than above (median).

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#203

Post by gjulianm »

tomp wrote: post #67
gjulianm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taking a career break to have children, historical 'steering' of women away from STEM subjects in education, some apparent natural tendency for many women to avoid such subjects even when they have a free choice, a tendency for women to not challenge their compensation or push for raises compared to men, women's tendency to avoid overtime compared to men which can affect their advancement prospects. I mean, all of…

Gender is a made-up concept with no sensible definition. The defining quality is sex . Having children is simply more burdensome and time-consuming for women, no way around it (except artificial wombs in the distant future). I've advocated "child-bonus" before (i.e. paying companies extra when their employees get pregnant and on maternity leave), but I doubt that idea will gain any popularity. When even in the most e…

> Having children is simply more burdensome and time-consuming for women, no way around it

Pregnancy is 9 months, the children live for many years. For that second part, men and women could take responsibilities in an equal way (save for breastfeeding, but pumps exists), but usually the burden tends to fall on the women and that hurts careers more than pregnancy.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#204

Post by Gareth321 »

mhoad wrote: post #164
Gareth321 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. This is literally impossible in anything other than rote manual labour. Even then, I'm not convinced this is possible.

I don’t know this sounds like it maps to a SQL query to me assuming you use consistent job titles and possibly the concept of “grades” e.g Level 1 Software Engineer

I'm glad you related it to my industry because I can assure you that not every L3 in Google contributes the same value to the company. They have vastly different backgrounds, education, experience, and aptitudes. Some are willing to work 80 hour weeks. Some aren't. Some are very skilled in technologies which aren't in-demand and don't currently generate a lot of value for Google. Some work on projects which generate a lot of value for Google. Some have excellent qualifications but little experience. Some have lots of experience but no qualifications. Some are extroverts and some are introverts. Some are great at communicating their thoughts and ideas. Some aren't. Some are grumpy and surly. Some are super friendly.

There are thousands and thousands of ways in which an L3 is not the same as another L3, and I promise you, no two L3s generate exactly the same value to Google.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#205

Post by Gareth321 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #185
Gareth321 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. This is literally impossible in anything other than rote manual labour. Even then, I'm not convinced this is possible.

Err, no it's not, big engineering firms (google, facebook, etc) have formalized job titles and 'ranks' and provide a clear path for advancement - and they publish pay ranges for those titles/ranks.

I will paste the same reply to the other, similar comment:

I'm glad you related it to my industry because I can assure you that not every L3 in Google contributes the same value to the company. They have vastly different backgrounds, education, experience, and aptitudes. Some are willing to work 80 hour weeks. Some aren't. Some are very skilled in technologies which aren't in-demand and don't currently generate a lot of value for Google. Some work on projects which generate a lot of value for Google. Some have excellent qualifications but little experience. Some have lots of experience but no qualifications. Some are extroverts and some are introverts. Some are great at communicating their thoughts and ideas. Some aren't. Some are grumpy and surly. Some are super friendly.

There are thousands and thousands of ways in which an L3 is not the same as another L3, and I promise you, no two L3s generate exactly the same value to Google. This is why pay at each level is in a range, so that these individual factors can be considered. This is compounded by the fact that there are L3s with more experience and/or qualifications than L5s. This is far from an objective comparison of an employees value generation.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#206

Post by giantg2 »

dgellow wrote: post #87
dijonman2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that not everyone brings equal value to an org. Some are rockstars and others are meh. It’s natural, and you should be incentivized to improve.

My experience is that once you remove the "rockstar" from a team (and by this I mean that they leave) the other employees take over their tasks and responsibilities without issues, and everything works fine. Which makes me believe the rockstar effect is quite often just a myth.

I have similar experiences. Some people like to be in the forefront. Others, like me, fill in the gaps and don't care about being "seen". When I lead, it's because there's a need for my leadership. I don't micromanage. I do what is necessary for the team to perform. That's it. If someone else needs or wants to fill that leadership role, then I allow them to take the spotlight.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#207

Post by cm2012 »

pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

Bullets 1-3 are excellent reforms that should be the case everywhere.

Bullet 4 could end up with bad consequences because there's so many ways to fudge the data. And justification is in the eye of the beholder.

For instance, in digital marketing, direct response advertising roles tend to be higher paid than marketing roles without strict KPIs (brand, organic social, etc.) Direct response advertising, for whatever reason, is split 80% men/20% women, with men and women making the same (high) salaries.

The softer marketing roles make significantly less on average, and are 80% women/20% men.

Can this law distinguish between a direct response marketer and a brand marketer, both of whom may be running Facebook and Youtube ads? Would a giant bureaucracy know or care about these nitty gritty differences in 1000s of industries? I foresee a lot of headache.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#208

Post by Gareth321 »

EE84M3i wrote: post #195
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, no it's not, big engineering firms (google, facebook, etc) have formalized job titles and 'ranks' and provide a clear path for advancement - and they publish pay ranges for those titles/ranks.

>they publish pay ranges for those titles/ranks. They do? I'd love to see that if you have a link.

I don't think they publish it publicly, but the data is available based on many different sources. This is one such aggregate: https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/salaries/Software-Engi...

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#209

Post by HideousKojima »

I_am_tiberius wrote: post #38

Great then everyone knows the minimum salary I earn. I always wanted that.

My last job was for a local government in the US. All public employees in the entire state have their exact salaries (including before and after benefits) publicly available for anyone to see.
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