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U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

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Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#161
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One argument seems to be that cryptocurrency is purely speculative, which is apparently a dirty word. What about the stock market? What about any kind of investment? Most other assets represent ownership of... something. A company, a commodity, property. Cryptocurrency is closest to either a fiat currency without the government backing that typically tries to stabilize those. Or to more exotic and abstract financia…

> Basically what's missing is the ability to even guess at the "true" value of cryptocurrency. There's no P/E ratios to consider because the only thing Crypto "produces" is Crypto transactions. It's also impossible to even guess at a floor or ceiling for the price of a cryptocurrency. The only thing that determines their price is human sentiment - a very fickle input. Interestingly, this isn't really true anymore. Mo…

> Price to earnings (P/E) ratio. Calculated by dividing the fully-diluted market cap with the annualized protocol revenue. Shows how a project is valued in relation to its protocol revenue.

That's misleading. Revenue is not earnings. For something like Uniswap, you also have to look at how much of earnings is given to liquidity providers versus spent on token buybacks.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#162
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prediction: Western currencies are on the way out. The US in particular can never repay its debt, it can't even normalize interest rates because it can't afford the interest. What will replace it is government-issued crypto-currency that will give them total control over how you spend money. If the Mayor of New York doesn't want you to buy soda, your currency will not be capable of being traded for soda in NYC.

The government likes it's debt. If they had (only) crypto, first thing they'd do is borrow more of it, or, if that's impossible, create it using tax-funded supercomputers, which is even worse than printing it the old way.

Yes, of course, they will have total control over the supply of coins.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#163
post #52

I’m blown away by how anti-crypto this discussion is. I hadn’t realized how negative the prevailing sentiment is on Hacker News. One argument seems to be that cryptocurrency is purely speculative, which is apparently a dirty word. What about the stock market? What about any kind of investment? If you truly believe that cryptocurrency is the basis for a superior economic system, isn’t it rational and wise to put some…

> Another argument is that crypto enables ransomware attacks.

Whether or not you have a positive opinion of cryptocurrencies, this is factual. In order to successfully demand a ransom, you must have a way to get paid. For ransomware, you need something you can do remotely around the world, and something that can’t be blocked or reversed by the authorities. Cryptocurrencies were the first solution for this.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#164
post #52

I’m blown away by how anti-crypto this discussion is. I hadn’t realized how negative the prevailing sentiment is on Hacker News. One argument seems to be that cryptocurrency is purely speculative, which is apparently a dirty word. What about the stock market? What about any kind of investment? If you truly believe that cryptocurrency is the basis for a superior economic system, isn’t it rational and wise to put some…

> One argument seems to be that cryptocurrency is purely speculative, which is apparently a dirty word. What about the stock market? What about any kind of investment? Most other assets represent ownership of... something. A company, a commodity, property. Cryptocurrency is closest to either a fiat currency without the government backing that typically tries to stabilize those. Or to more exotic and abstract financia…

For what it's worth, with an older financial background, the gold standard of P/E ratios were made up at one point as well.

Financial statement analysis and GAAP are much softer indicators than gen pop tends to think. It comes out of a period before behavioral economics took hold, for instance.

> guess at the "true" value of cryptocurrency

How I do it is this:

It's understood today that the Internet fundamentally changed "something" inherent about how we access, interact with and move information. There was a cambrian explosion of availability, and we overtime determined there was some form of "value" to it. It's worth remembering that how to value it had no real peer to compare to in terms of competing information networks - would you price an internet company, or infrastructure like you would a book publishing company or news org? That valuation and how to invest in it broadly took the form of Internet companies, or data-rate charges from infrastructure owners. It's challenging to price the actual data in the network. Arguably, PII/customer data is so valuable because that's easy to price. It's tied to a discrete individual. But for raw information packets, that's more challenging to do for many reasons. So we know this information has value, but we can't easily price it like we can other commodities (1 piece of timber == $$, 1 TCP/IP packet == ?).

Financial transactions are also a form of information. But they didn't experience a correspondingly large boom relative to the full impact on information by the Internet. This is because financial transactions need to be provably discrete, and TCP/IP and related design concepts aren't a good fit for it (yes, packets in transit are discrete, but what I'm referring to goes beyond that). So, we've seen huge explosions of financial activity where it was a simpler financial tx -> internet packet like in heavily digitized financial exchanges, paypal, venmo, and the large uptick in tap-to-pay smart devices. However, we're still entering payment details manually in many payment settings, and the digitization of current finance still ends up requiring a significant amount of manual settlement behind the scenes. This is because it's challenging to prove that "1 digi-buck" is in fact a discrete digi-buck I own and I alone.

So, that's the value that cryptocurrency solved: how to send provably discrete financial data, without relying on a manual, centralized settlement system that's possibly corruptible (what cryptocurrency people would call trustless settlement). It moves the value proposition from the external parties around the internet (ISPs, companies, consumer data) directly into the data transacted, itself. And puts a price on that data.

In my mind, I think of what the Internet did to information, and what cryptocurrency does to financial information, then there's a clear value prop. Edit: the big unknown though is how the tradeoffs between a good-enough service like venmo vs. bitcoin impact user decisions. Digitized finance that's just "good enough" might be good enough for quite a large chunk of the population, and it'll be a long time before we see me paying you for beer in btc.

Hope that helps but also would love to hear counters.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#165
post #52

I’m blown away by how anti-crypto this discussion is. I hadn’t realized how negative the prevailing sentiment is on Hacker News. One argument seems to be that cryptocurrency is purely speculative, which is apparently a dirty word. What about the stock market? What about any kind of investment? If you truly believe that cryptocurrency is the basis for a superior economic system, isn’t it rational and wise to put some…

I for one am surprised by the negative sentiment only because the tech industry seems to be all about it. I don’t see the problem it is trying to fix. Crypto by is terrible as a currency, transactions are slow and damn can they cost a lot. And the currency itself fluctuates a lot. It’s not really decentralized, it’s not really anonymous and it can be manipulated. There seems to be no end to people hyping crypto and NFTs, because if I get you to buy in my money may go up. But what exactly am I buying? Sounds like you just need a sucker and I may or may not make money, but since you made up this currency and a small number of people own the lion’s share I guess you all get rich. My take is that the tech industry has just created a new way to become even richer by making some confusing product to prey off everyone. Maybe that wasn’t the initial plan but it sure looks like that’s how it’s shaking out.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#167
post #52

I’m blown away by how anti-crypto this discussion is. I hadn’t realized how negative the prevailing sentiment is on Hacker News. One argument seems to be that cryptocurrency is purely speculative, which is apparently a dirty word. What about the stock market? What about any kind of investment? If you truly believe that cryptocurrency is the basis for a superior economic system, isn’t it rational and wise to put some…

I for one am surprised by the negative sentiment only because the tech industry seems to be all about it. I don’t see the problem it is trying to fix. Crypto by is terrible as a currency, transactions are slow and damn can they cost a lot. And the currency itself fluctuates a lot. It’s not really decentralized, it’s not really anonymous and it can be manipulated. There seems to be no end to people hyping crypto and N…

> I for one am surprised by the negative sentiment only because the tech industry seems to be all about it.

Between the prevailing trend of rent-seeking subscriptions and shoving NFTs/blockchain into anything that some knucklehead thinks it will fit in, tech is very much becoming grift culture as the nerds get run over by sharks, business types, and crypto bros

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Banks will be hurt by crypto Anyone saying this is talking bollocks. Wall Street hasn’t seen a bonanza like crypto since ‘06. Hedge funds are having their best fundraising years since the 80s, largely on the back of crypto-related trading. The best balance I can come up for crypto is to mandate KYC at all on and off ramps, tax its trading like the luxury good it is (maybe using the proceeds to fund law enforcement…

>The best balance I can come up for crypto is to mandate KYC at all on and off ramps That would drive the value basically to zero, since the entirety of all crypto market caps are based on their ability to facilitate digital crimes.

One, KYC in America does nothing for the rest of the world. Two, we know that’s not true. The aforementioned hedge funds could keep the flywheel going on their own.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#169
post #52

I’m blown away by how anti-crypto this discussion is. I hadn’t realized how negative the prevailing sentiment is on Hacker News. One argument seems to be that cryptocurrency is purely speculative, which is apparently a dirty word. What about the stock market? What about any kind of investment? If you truly believe that cryptocurrency is the basis for a superior economic system, isn’t it rational and wise to put some…

> One argument seems to be that cryptocurrency is purely speculative, which is apparently a dirty word. What about the stock market? What about any kind of investment? Most other assets represent ownership of... something. A company, a commodity, property. Cryptocurrency is closest to either a fiat currency without the government backing that typically tries to stabilize those. Or to more exotic and abstract financia…

For Bitcoin and other PoW coins, the value is built into the name for minting: Proof of WORK. Less abstractly, today we can think of this as proof of energy consumption / production. In other words, it is sort of crystallizing energy into abstract & transmissible value. By holding a coin, you hold that value / solidified energy.

It takes a certain and increasing amount of energy to generate 1 coin, which binds the value of the coin to physics. This is actually a very good thing, especially given it does not care where the energy comes from. If nuclear, solar, window, hydro, and thermal were our dominant energy sources, it would work in that just as well and without bias. Indeed, it actually has active market incentives to utilize clean and renewable energy sources — something the previous financial mechanisms grossly lack.

Existing banking institutions consume more energy in unmeasurable ways, and they DO care where the energy comes from: oil. They want oil. It’s called the petrodollar for a reason.

Re: U.S. Secret Service Launches Cryptocurrency Awareness Hub

#170
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One argument seems to be that cryptocurrency is purely speculative, which is apparently a dirty word. What about the stock market? What about any kind of investment? I recommend not using the "what about the stock market?" tactic to defend cryptocurrencies. Crypto is more speculative than the stock market because companies have physical assets, ongoing revenue and profits, dividends that they pay out to their share…

> companies have physical assets, ongoing revenue and profits, dividends that they pay out to their shareholders. Exactly! If Uber ever shuts down for any reason, they can take all of their vehicles, buildings, gold, and whatever else they own, and evenly distribute them for all shareholders!

> they can take all of their vehicles, buildings, gold, and whatever else they own

Uber owns billions of dollars of property, equipment and leases [1]. But your broader point holds. Uber has massive intangible value, which is close to impossible to distribute.

The difference between it and Bitcoin is one can buy Uber, all of Uber, and capture that value. M&A is the ultimate disciplinarian of the stock market, much more so than dividend cash flows. (Though the latter ultimately drives the former.) If you buy every Bitcoin, you destroy it.

[1] https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/1543151/0001...

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