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EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

europarl.europa.eu

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Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#91

Post by darebak »

simonh wrote: post #25
0xedd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

despite pay gap shown time and time again to be fiction, government monkeys are still dancing to that out of key tune.

Overall in developed countries the pay gap has largely been closed over the last few decades, but remaining gaps are not fiction. There are still real and unjustifiable gaps in some employment sectors, especially in a region as diverse as the EU. Pay gaps in some Eastern European countries for example still persist.

Isn't Eastern Europe more progressive when it comes to female participation in the workforce?

Also I find it hard to believe there's a significant pay gap for the same position when the workers have the same experience and the same education. Or that that gap is gendered, meaning that weaker negotiatiors get lower salaries.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#92

Post by drstewart »

dijit wrote: post #48
aborsy wrote: post #3

Honestly, it’s going to be embarrassing with these low salaries when we socialize with non EU colleagues!

I used to think this (as a euro), then I met an American and he explained that he ended up better off in Europe on a "lower" salary because he hadn't considered the hidden costs of living in the USA. He claimed (though I'm certainly no expert) that you have to do your own taxes and set aside money for that; he also claimed that "sales tax" had local, state and federal taxes applied, so while it varies from state to s…

Yeah, none of that is true. There is no federal sales tax, and sales tax in most places didn't ever come close to 10%, let alone 20%. In many states it's 0.

Filing your taxes is free. Maybe you can spend $30 if you want to use turbo tax to do it for you.

Any job with these salary differences provides great health care and benefits.

Cars exist in Europe, I know many software developers there that have them. Why people pretend nobody has them if beyond me. And just like in the US, the closer and more convenient to the city center you are the more expensive it is to live there. Cars are also not as costly of a burden as they are in Europe. Also, most European tech jobs are in cities (London, Amsterdam, Dublin) that have similar cost of living to US cities which you don't need a car in (SF, NYC, Seattle). So it's mostly a moot point anyway.

Finally, we get to a point where there is a REAL cost difference: taxes. The overall burden of taxes will be 10-20% lower in the US, which is a substantial difference as it's a percentage on gross, not an additional fixed fee like many of the above expenses.

If you want to pretend all of that justifies a 6 figure salary difference, more power to you. I've looked into making the move many many times with actual figures and it never even comes close to being close.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#93

Post by Double_a_92 »

Raed667 wrote: post #20

Is there anything in this text that would prevent a company from posting offers with very large ranges? "this position salary can be from €35k to 75k€ depending on multiple factors" Such ranges would render it pointless

I assume the range has to be based on actual salaries that are being paid in that company for similar positions.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#94

Post by kcb »

trabant00 wrote: post #49

I find myself at the other end of the equal pay problem - I am equally payed with equally titled but not equally working coworkers. The entire management chain has clearly different expectations from me: I get most if not all of the difficult tasks and my coworkers rely daily on my guidance. In this quarter discussion with my manager I've been told I can not get a pay raise as it would create a discrepancy with my co…

> I am equally payed with equally titled but not equally working coworkers. The entire management chain has clearly different expectations from me: I get most if not all of the difficult tasks and my coworkers rely daily on my guidance.

Careful with this line of thinking. It is just going to lead to aggrandizing yourself while downplaying and belittling others work. Once you get to that point you become the problem not others.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#95

Post by ethbr0 »

iso1631 wrote: post #82
dijonman2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that not everyone brings equal value to an org. Some are rockstars and others are meh. It’s natural, and you should be incentivized to improve.

The reality is I spend time applying for a job which claims a "competitive" salary for a "network architect", and eventually find it's in the 35-45k range "depending on skills" Those companies then run off to government saying "we can't employ anyone" Fortunately more and more job listings on linked in are listing ballpark salaries so it's easy to ignore them, there's a few coming up which are reasonable salaries for…

I get why employer's tendency is to withhold pay information. But ultimately, it's a waste of my time and their time if we're not close enough. So disclosure seems win/win.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#96

Post by andai »

My admittedly limited understanding of the gender pay gap is that it is based on gender differences in interests (eg. career-wise), differences in willingness to work long hours (especially with age), and differences in temperament, ie. women on the whole having lower assertiveness and thus being less likely to ask for higher salaries and raises.

The "equal work" part takes care of the first two points, ie. the type of work and the amount performed, but it leaves out the negotiation aspect. To emphasize the importance of negotiation: several friends of mine told me their bosses said they could have started with nearly double their starting salaries if they had negotiated better, so this aspect makes a huge difference, at least in engineering.

My understanding of the proposed legislation is that the higher (average) salaries, fought for and won by the men, will be given to the women for free (by companies who will be forced to make such information public and fear it will make them look bad). Not saying that's either good or bad, just interesting. Someone please correct me if I'm misunderstanding.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#97

Post by tomp »

ATsch wrote: post #75
tomp wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transparency is good, but what about freedom of choice, to enable individuals to act on that information? Ideal would be outlawing non-competes.

They are already effectively outlawed in most of the EU. E.g. in Germany, you must be paid at least 50% of your current salary while the clause is active, for a maximum of two years and "unreasonably broad" clauses are invalid.

If by “effectively outlawed” you mean “not effectively outlawed at all”, then yes, sure.

How many people can survive for 2 years on 50% lower salary? In addition, the biggest impediment of non-competes is actually the inflexibility (“your job offer sounds amazing, I’ll start working in 18-24 months!”).

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#98

Post by seneca »

zibzab wrote: post #62
trabant00 wrote: post #49

I find myself at the other end of the equal pay problem - I am equally payed with equally titled but not equally working coworkers. The entire management chain has clearly different expectations from me: I get most if not all of the difficult tasks and my coworkers rely daily on my guidance. In this quarter discussion with my manager I've been told I can not get a pay raise as it would create a discrepancy with my co…

How is this any different from the normal state of affairs? You think you work too much and are paid too little? Then leave, this has nothing to do with "equal pay".

> How is this any different from the normal state of affairs?

They explained that in their post. They aren't getting a raise because it would create a discrepancy with the pay bands. This is exactly the type of bureaucracy being enshrined in law here. It removes discretion and disincentivises those who are capable.

I believe their point is that it's thematically similar to the company policy they chafed under, and were reminded of communism by.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#99

Post by darebak »

Levitz wrote: post #64
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

… until you take into account everything covered by welfare states.

There ain't no welfare state on heaven or earth that makes enough of a difference for new grads to earn 14-18k yearly (before tax). Good afternoon from Spain.

Ha, I actually have an Italian colleague who moved to Easter Europe(Slovakia) which I found surprising at first but then I discovered that Spain and Italy are comparable on salaries but have higher cost of living.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#100

Post by tibbetts »

mustyoshi wrote: post #16
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

How does making salary public and not asking about applicants pay history work? If you tell them your title and employer, can't they just look up what you probably got paid?

Large employers already subscribe to services which tell them what you likely got paid at your last job by geo/title/seniority/tenure.
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