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EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

europarl.europa.eu

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Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#71

Post by alistairSH »

mustyoshi wrote: post #16
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

How does making salary public and not asking about applicants pay history work? If you tell them your title and employer, can't they just look up what you probably got paid?

In the US (I realize the article is about EU), salary information for a given individual is not public* and employers typically will not share it (when queried by a prospective employer, they will only confirm employment history - "yes, Bob worked here for 5 years as a developer").

Several states have implemented similar rules (CO and CA, IIRC). A job listing would typically list either a minimum salary or range for a position. "Senior Developer, $120,000-$150,000" or whatever.

Two upsides to this approach... First, an employee is not limited by their current salary - they can negotiate on their value. Second, it's widely accepted that women and minorities tend to be less aggressive salary negotiators. Those two things together, applied over a career, can make a massive reduction in lifetime earnings for employees.

* Government jobs are the big exception - you can search for most university salaries because most receive government funding. Same for local government offices.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#72

Post by zhdc1 »

dijit wrote: post #48
aborsy wrote: post #3

Honestly, it’s going to be embarrassing with these low salaries when we socialize with non EU colleagues!

I used to think this (as a euro), then I met an American and he explained that he ended up better off in Europe on a "lower" salary because he hadn't considered the hidden costs of living in the USA. He claimed (though I'm certainly no expert) that you have to do your own taxes and set aside money for that; he also claimed that "sales tax" had local, state and federal taxes applied, so while it varies from state to s…

> I used to think this (as a euro), then I met an American and he explained that he ended up better off in Europe on a "lower" salary because he hadn't considered the hidden costs of living in the USA.

This is going to be very situation dependent, but usually the math works out in favor of the US. The EU will generally, but not always, have higher taxes, lower salaries, and a lower total cost of living. However, the difference depends a lot on which region you're looking at. Of course, there are also going to be varying quality of life differences that can't be easily quantified, which is where many parts of the EU come out better.

> He claimed (though I'm certainly no expert) that you have to do your own taxes and set aside money for that; he also claimed that "sales tax" had local, state and federal taxes applied, so while it varies from state to state and city to city; it generally ends up being about 18-20%, which is in-line with VAT in most Euro countries.

He was likely self-employed. Income taxes in the US are almost always withheld by the employer. Sales tax does vary depending on the state and local government, but it looks like the maximum sales tax at the moment is a little over 10%.

> Though he said he couldn't imagine living without a car in the US, as it turns you "back into a child".

This is true in most areas. It's possible to live without a car in some of the larger cities, such as NYC and DC. However even then it's preferable to have one (which is also true from experience in Europe as well).

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#73

Post by I_am_tiberius »

nivenkos wrote: post #54
I_am_tiberius wrote: post #38

Great then everyone knows the minimum salary I earn. I always wanted that.

It's public in many countries anyway - Norway and Sweden at least have public tax returns.

> It's public in many countries anyway

That doesn't mean it's good and it is not public in all countries. I don't consider this a valid argument.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#74

Post by LanceH »

moss2 wrote: post #43
0xedd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

despite pay gap shown time and time again to be fiction, government monkeys are still dancing to that out of key tune.

Sources please

Ideally the people writing the policy could provide the sources that we could scrutinize. I just keep hearing politicians and advocacy groups saying 77% for literally decades now. I'm willing to accept there is a gap. I'm not willing to accept that this number hasn't moved for years.

Here is one saying women (25-34) earn 93% -- apparently not controlling for the actual job at all.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/05/25/gender-pay-...

Time after time it seems "pay gap between men and women" is conflated with "pay gap between men and women in the same job". Then there are the made up numbers that are the talking points.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#75

Post by ATsch »

tomp wrote: post #65
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

Transparency is good, but what about freedom of choice, to enable individuals to act on that information? Ideal would be outlawing non-competes.

They are already effectively outlawed in most of the EU. E.g. in Germany, you must be paid at least 50% of your current salary while the clause is active, for a maximum of two years and "unreasonably broad" clauses are invalid.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#76

Post by froh »

nivenkos wrote: post #54
I_am_tiberius wrote: post #38

Great then everyone knows the minimum salary I earn. I always wanted that.

It's public in many countries anyway - Norway and Sweden at least have public tax returns.

What do you mean public tax returns? Public to who?

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#77

Post by dijonman2 »

tialaramex wrote: post #18
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

> Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history Aw, that was one of the fun moments when getting my current job. I moved from private sector to public sector and they're like "You understand that the previous pay you listed is more than our boss's boss, the director of our entire org unit gets paid right?". Yes, yes I do. Which is why when you asked at interview "Why do you want this role…

The reality is that not everyone brings equal value to an org. Some are rockstars and others are meh. It’s natural, and you should be incentivized to improve.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#78

Post by dgellow »

tomp wrote: post #65
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

Transparency is good, but what about freedom of choice, to enable individuals to act on that information? Ideal would be outlawing non-competes.

What do you mean by freedom of choice here? I don't see how that relates to the topic at hand.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#79

Post by rietta »

tialaramex wrote: post #18
pimterry wrote: post #2

The meat is page 5 under "The changes the proposal would bring". Highlights: * Job-seekers would have a right to information about the pay range of posts they apply for * Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history * Employees would have a right to ask their employer for sex-disaggregated information on the average pay of other workers doing the same work or work of equal value. * Emplo…

> Employers would be prohibited from asking about an applicant's pay history Aw, that was one of the fun moments when getting my current job. I moved from private sector to public sector and they're like "You understand that the previous pay you listed is more than our boss's boss, the director of our entire org unit gets paid right?". Yes, yes I do. Which is why when you asked at interview "Why do you want this role…

Not quite the same, but when asked by a State agency what it would take for to go on full time I gave a number and was told that is more than the Governor makes. My response was well he also gets a house! We had a good laugh together.

Re: EU to mandate public salary information for all job postings [pdf]

#80

Post by LanceH »

lentil_soup wrote: post #31
Raed667 wrote: post #20

Is there anything in this text that would prevent a company from posting offers with very large ranges? "this position salary can be from €35k to 75k€ depending on multiple factors" Such ranges would render it pointless

I'm not sure. If you can afford to be picky such a large range might be a bit of a red flag. Also, if I'm looking for something close to the top of the range the possibility that I may get a way lower offer might put me off. Specially if I'll need to fight the company to get the top of the range salary.

I can think of some unusual situations with a really small company. Say you're looking for people who can do two tasks and those two tasks either don't come along in the same person or take too much time for one person. So you're looking for two people, but you're also looking for one of them to be senior and head up the team -- you don't care which one.

I feel like this comes up in the sub 10 people startup situation. You need someone to work on anything that comes through the door, and you need junior guys to just pick up the grunt work and do tasks.

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