Live data from Hacker News

Frugal Computing (2021)

wimvanderbauwhede.github.io

21–30 of 99 posts

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#21
post #7

This always interests me. I always push for more efficient use of computing resources but there isn’t any interest in this while it’s cheap

"...there isn’t any interest in this while it’s cheap"

I agree. This topic was discussed recently on a HN thread and I'll repeat what I said then.

Some of the most popular languages are the least performative. But if a program runs slowly, many developers will simply throw more hardware at the problem. The "hardware is cheap" attitude is widespread among developers and is frankly embarrassing.

Compare that to other industries that strive to improve energy efficiency. Imagine if a manufacturer said that they were going to make fridges/washing machines or other appliances without regard to energy-efficiency because "hardware is cheap". It sounds ridiculous.

A typed, compiled language can give you good performance and smaller memory footprint for free with the reduced computing resources that implies - no premature optimisation required.

Among developers, there is also a double-standard in attitudes and practice. Developers complain loudly when they are at the receiving end of slow or memory-hungry apps (or websites). But when it's their turn to build apps or sites, they will prioritise languages or technologies that suit their own ease and comfort above all else. The user-experience, performance, memory footprint - all take a back seat.

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#23
> To address these challenges, action is needed on many fronts. What will you do to make frugal computing a reality?

I dunno, isn't this the same thing as blaming climate change on the people who take a single vacation by plane per year, no matter what else they're doing the other 51 weeks to try to live a non-wasteful life?

I like my home server and having my data here, on LAN speed. Of course that's probably not the ideal thing from a power usage perspective. Does it offset the fact that I am hardly using a car? Am I allowed to use up the old lightbulbs I still have or is it really better to go out and buy LEDs for everything? Should I replace my hardware all the time because it uses less power or keep the old stuff that is just fine? What can I do if the damn phone manufacturers won't ship updated after 2 years when I'd gladly use it for 4 years? Must I buy Apple now?

Sure, everyone has their own 'I will not give in' topics, but more and more I am getting disillusioned that I personally can make any impact.

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#24

> To address these challenges, action is needed on many fronts. What will you do to make frugal computing a reality? Frustrating that the authors ends with such an "open note", without any practical "first steps". (This [1] at least _tries_ to give some options, as arguable as they are.) There are obvious contenders: * keep your phone longer. Brag about it. Find a persuasive way to _demand_ that apps, updates, etc...…

> the jury is still out on whether the energy saved _running_ Rust code will offset the energy consumed _compiling_ it

Obviously depends on how much the compiled code is run. If it's a one-off script, no. If it's a server that will serve a million requests, or a browser that is shipped to a million users that will use the same version for a few months, a thousand times yes. And the vast majority of energy use that can be attributed to programs is in the second category.

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#25
Abstinence-only climate education is such a depressing notion. There is plenty of clean energy. It is not running out. The idea that we should impoverish ourselves to protect against a problem we can solve without impoverishing ourselves is unjustifiably self-destructive.

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#26
post #15

No one has yet mentioned bitcoin?

Exactly… the projection that datacenters' demand for computing power won't be offset by silicon efficiency improvements is somewhat speculative; the projection that Bitcoin's demand for computing power won't be offset by silicon efficiency improvements is obvious and is by design of the fucking system.

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#27
post #23

> To address these challenges, action is needed on many fronts. What will you do to make frugal computing a reality? I dunno, isn't this the same thing as blaming climate change on the people who take a single vacation by plane per year, no matter what else they're doing the other 51 weeks to try to live a non-wasteful life? I like my home server and having my data here, on LAN speed. Of course that's probably not th…

There is no point in trying to fight climate change as an individual. The scale of pollution by industry is so mind-bogglingly massive that there is nothing that we can do to make a difference. We could all turn off every device, never buy anything new, and go back to eating foraged berries while living in a cave and climate change would still happen.

To give recent example of how industry works with no regard whatsoever to the climate, the German airline Lufthansa flew 21,000 entirely empty flights during periods of lockdown so that airports didn't change their schedules[1].

We are at the point now that unless industries change we should really start thinking about how we live with climate change, not how we stop it.

[1] https://www.wired.co.uk/article/airplanes-empty-slots-covid

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#28
post #25

Abstinence-only climate education is such a depressing notion. There is plenty of clean energy. It is not running out. The idea that we should impoverish ourselves to protect against a problem we can solve without impoverishing ourselves is unjustifiably self-destructive.

It's not necessarily impoverishing and depressing. It can be, especially if enforced from outside, but many people find satisfaction in minimalism and frugality.

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#29
post #27
post #23

> To address these challenges, action is needed on many fronts. What will you do to make frugal computing a reality? I dunno, isn't this the same thing as blaming climate change on the people who take a single vacation by plane per year, no matter what else they're doing the other 51 weeks to try to live a non-wasteful life? I like my home server and having my data here, on LAN speed. Of course that's probably not th…

There is no point in trying to fight climate change as an individual. The scale of pollution by industry is so mind-bogglingly massive that there is nothing that we can do to make a difference. We could all turn off every device, never buy anything new, and go back to eating foraged berries while living in a cave and climate change would still happen. To give recent example of how industry works with no regard whatso…

Industry ultimately exists to serve individuals.

> We could all turn off every device, never buy anything new, and go back to eating foraged berries while living in a cave and climate change would still happen.

If consumers disappeared then its not like industry would keep on churning pollution to no end.

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#30

> To address these challenges, action is needed on many fronts. What will you do to make frugal computing a reality? Frustrating that the authors ends with such an "open note", without any practical "first steps". (This [1] at least _tries_ to give some options, as arguable as they are.) There are obvious contenders: * keep your phone longer. Brag about it. Find a persuasive way to _demand_ that apps, updates, etc...…

You know, it feels like some of that advice isn't entirely viable, though i support it on some level.

> * keep your phone longer. Brag about it. Find a persuasive way to _demand_ that apps, updates, etc... keep working. I don't know what difference 5 years vs 3 years do, though.

> * make fun of people who change their phone all the time. (Or for that matter, make fun of consumerism _in general_.) Assuming peer pressure stands a chance against advertising industry.

Currently i have an ulePhone Armor X7 Pro, a phone that i got because it was both affordable and relatively rugged (i've dropped it once on concrete while doing pull-ups, it didn't even have a scratch on it) as well as water/dust proof. Despite the fact that the battery is not removable (something that's an entirely different can of worms) or in a form factor that's hard to get aftermarket replacements for, it's suitable for most of my needs - probably one of the least bad choices i could have made with these constraints in mind.

That said, the kernel is from 2020, the Android security patches are from 2020 and Android 10 will hit its own EOL in a few years anyways. Not only does the software have planned obsolescence baked into it by the OS going out of support eventually, not only is it abandoned by the developers who aren't actively shipping patches, but it will also not be possible to install custom ROMs because of either the bootloaders being locked by default (which sometimes don't even have ways around this) or the drivers being oddly specific and half of the phone's functionality breaking with those, which i've experienced even back in Android 2.X days.

Of course, phones aren't the only problematic bits of software here: old hardware is basically killed due to insecure OSes like Windows XP, Windows 7 and others for certain goals like gaming (and no, Linux is not and will not be suitable for that on older hardware for numerous titles) or other pieces of software that have become increasingly bloated nowadays and require better/modern hardware to run.

Who knows, maybe we'll eventually even see x86 be retired completely, it's not like all of our software is backwards compatible even as we speak, many focusing on just x64 and not even testing their software on older architectures. Though perhaps that only applies to decades, not a few years, as far as time scales are concerned.

> * write efficient software ? (The joke is that anything that can be rewritten in Rust will be rewritten in Rust; but the jury is still out on whether the energy saved _running_ Rust code will offset the energy consumed _compiling_ it.)

> * write no software ? (especially if you're in the cat picture and fake news sharing business ?)

Maybe we should also think about how to limit what our current software can do, to prevent it from eating all of the system resources for whatever reason (it being written badly, having unreasonable demands for hardware because "RAM that's not used is wasted" and so on)?

For example, currently i run Docker Swarm on my homelab with containers, each of which has a resource limitation in place: none can use up more than 1 core of my CPU which consequently means that nothing can typically bring down the entire system by misbehaving.

I wish we'd easily be able to do the same for desktop software on all OSes, just set affinity to N core(s) by default for software that we don't want to give too much processing power and allow it to request more. Same for memory. Same for disk space. I am okay with offending packages working slowly, hitting the swap space or being OOM killed (or even them requesting more resources), i'm not okay with some software package thinking its owns my machine and slowing everything down.

In summary, however, i'll try to make my hardware and software last: Debian (community LTS)/Ubuntu LTS/Rocky Linux are all suitable for now, even on my homelab boxes with used 200GEs with just 35W TDP, and i guess my phone will also be okay until it's overcome by malware that will proceed to steal any and all of my data, should companies not get there first.

Post reply on HN