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Frugal Computing (2021)

wimvanderbauwhede.github.io

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Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#11

Post by phtrivier »

> To address these challenges, action is needed on many fronts. What will you do to make frugal computing a reality?

Frustrating that the authors ends with such an "open note", without any practical "first steps". (This [1] at least _tries_ to give some options, as arguable as they are.)

There are obvious contenders:

* keep your phone longer. Brag about it. Find a persuasive way to _demand_ that apps, updates, etc... keep working. I don't know what difference 5 years vs 3 years do, though.

* make fun of people who change their phone all the time. (Or for that matter, make fun of consumerism _in general_.) Assuming peer pressure stands a chance against advertising industry.

* write efficient software ? (The joke is that anything that can be rewritten in Rust will be rewritten in Rust; but the jury is still out on whether the energy saved _running_ Rust code will offset the energy consumed _compiling_ it.)

* write no software ? (especially if you're in the cat picture and fake news sharing business ?)

[1] http://worrydream.com/ClimateChange/

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#12

Post by allendoerfer »

hamilyon2 wrote: post #6

This is fascinating. We are barely keeping up with demand for computing with all those inefficient languages, architecture and difficulties of scale we face now. We waste cycles, bandwidth, memory and still do not have enough developer time to build or simply keep up with demand. Just imagine how much more work is to be done when we face additional constraints of reuse of old devices, conserving energy, and device ut…

1.) Make it work.

2.) Make it right.

3.) Make it fast.

While some individual software is at step 3, as a society overall we have much work ahead of us at step 1.

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#13

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

I’ve found that writing mobile apps (especially native apps) is basically de facto “frugal computing.”

Power consumption is a big part of mobile app development.

I haven’t had the opportunity to write stuff that really sucks down a power load.

I have a pretty cool ML app that really sucks down the battery. It can drain 3% of my battery in about 5mins. The phone gets noticeably hot in my hand. I guess they are using their own ML engine, as opposed to the hardware-assisted stuff in the phone.

On the other hand, most games on my phone seem to run cool. I suspect that’s because they leverage Metal.

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#14

Post by phtrivier »

hughrr wrote: post #7

This always interests me. I always push for more efficient use of computing resources but there isn’t any interest in this while it’s cheap

If this follows the same trend as energy, I'm curious about what will happen when the energy and environmental impact has to be factored into the price of internet consumption.

At some points, bandwith will stop being "free", the price of electronics will grow, etc... Then it will reach a tipping point where the masses can not afford anymore what had become "essential".

Millenials and GenZ made lots of fun of boomers in yellow yest complaining about gas price.

I wonder what demonstrations will look like when we can't afford Netflix and Tiktok and Zoom any more.

For me, I'm old enough to remember a time where switching the modem on was a thoughfull decision, because of the phone bill.

But I'm afraid it's not going to make things any easier than it was for the yellow vests who had gone through one or two gas shocks in the 70s...

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#16

Post by mro_name »

ojciecczas wrote: post #9

The internet should operate like a sunflower, servers should follow the sun. Data centers should operate on solar energy, deploying themselves at the sunrise and shutting down at sunset in given location.

shutting down datacenters is a neat idea.

Know https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/01/how-sustainable-is...?

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#17

Post by vladoh »

One aspect I didn't see much discussion on is about tradeoffs. Yes, computing demand is increasing, but does it all have a negative environmental balance?

Example - modern cars. They are full of electronics (there are around 80 ECUs in a modern car), but these electronics make the cars safer and lower the fuel consumption. Just look at how much the CO2 output for the same engine power decreased over time. Some of it comes from better mechanics like turbos or filters, but a lot of it comes from better electronics in the engine ECU.

Another example - logistics. Delivery companies are able to much better plan demand, routes and inventory thanks to big data processing in data centers. Yes, a data center consumes a lot of energy, but it also helps reduce emissions from trucks driving around less.

I don't have exact numbers, but I think everybody can imagine how increased computing in some areas (not all) improves the environmental impact. These are things that need to be considered in order to avoid unintended consequences.

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#18

Post by Bancakes »

hamilyon2 wrote: post #6

This is fascinating. We are barely keeping up with demand for computing with all those inefficient languages, architecture and difficulties of scale we face now. We waste cycles, bandwidth, memory and still do not have enough developer time to build or simply keep up with demand. Just imagine how much more work is to be done when we face additional constraints of reuse of old devices, conserving energy, and device ut…

We aren't slowing down, we are going back to normal levels of development. For the last 20 years we've been rushing and agiling everything for the sake of money, sacrificing backwards compatibility and maintainability.

Reusing old devices is a given. A program works until an update breaks it. The hardware is perfectly suited for this - x86 has ridiculous back compat. The challenges you point out are completely self made and it's time we repay our technical debt.

As far as biosphere goes, it's like saying a slow dentist harms surgeons. What even is this mythical software which protects the biosphere and lifts people from poverty? SV is not contributing to such efforts, nor is any general SE corporation. We will just slow down and consume less software. Less, but better maintained.

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#19

Post by El_RIDO »

ojciecczas wrote: post #9

The internet should operate like a sunflower, servers should follow the sun. Data centers should operate on solar energy, deploying themselves at the sunrise and shutting down at sunset in given location.

Here is an example of doing just that - with a nice graph of where the site is currently served from: http://solarprotocol.net/

Re: Frugal Computing (2021)

#20

Post by phtrivier »

vladoh wrote: post #17

One aspect I didn't see much discussion on is about tradeoffs. Yes, computing demand is increasing, but does it all have a negative environmental balance? Example - modern cars. They are full of electronics (there are around 80 ECUs in a modern car), but these electronics make the cars safer and lower the fuel consumption. Just look at how much the CO2 output for the same engine power decreased over time. Some of it…

In the case of cars, according to this [1] (seemingly based on US Federal data), the improvements in car efficiency since the 60s, is:

> Noteworthy fuel-economy trends, taking into account the length of time represented:

> A minor decrease between 1966 and 1973 (from 13.5 mpg to 12.9 mpg).

> A modest increase between 1973 and 1991 (from 12.9 mpg to 19.6 mpg).

> No change between 1991 and 2004 (19.6 mpg for both years).

> A modest increase between 2004 and 2008 (from 19.6 mpg to 21.8 mpg).

> A minor increase between 2008 and 2017 (from 21.8 mpg to 22.3 mpg).

The term "modest" is probabling misleading, but looking at the graph in the linked site is more telling: basically, efficienty increased after the first gas shock, and "more or less" stalled in the 2000s.

So maybe the addition of electronics in the 70/80s had an impact in consumption, but I would argue it's less obvious for the additions in the 90s/2000s/2010s - although it would take a bit longer to show as the older cars are still on the road.

Impact on safety, though, I don't know.

As for the CO2 emission, I have a hard time taking any number at face value, knowing that, ironically, some of the electronings on board can be designed to cheat emision tests [2] - but that's probably unfair.

[1] https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/09/20190930-sivak.html

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal

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