In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously • Hacker News Board

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#351

Post by slibhb » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 3:04 AM UTC

catgary wrote: post #319

mark_l_watson wrote: post #145

Excellent article and one that I wish my friends would read. Recently on a hike I mentioned how upsetting Trudeau’s actions are, and none of my friends had any idea what was happening up in Canada, except someone talked about a few things that I don’t believe are true: truckers were violent, few Canadians supported them, etc. - I think those things are not true. As other people here have pointed out, cashless society…

No, poll after poll has shown that Canadians were overwhelmingly against the truckers [1], and a strong majority supported the use of the emergency act (there was even a point where bringing in the military polled quite strongly with Canadians). There have also been a multitude of reports of violence, including at least one case where protestors attempted to burn down an apartment complex with its residents locked in…

I doubt there was significant violence. If there had been, there'd be lots of criminal charges or video and photo evidence. The story you linked is vague and there's no evidence that people starting a fire in a building are linked to the protestors.

I agree with your other point, that Canadians largely oppose the protests.

What I don't understand is why the Emergency Act was invoked. I've heard no reasonsble explanation for why police couldn't disperse protestors blocking roads or arrest them and impound their vehicles if they refused to leave without the act.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#352

Post by Nursie » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 3:06 AM UTC

throwaway22032 wrote: post #186

Koshkin wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to carry pieces of paper around, and getting pieces of metal as change is inconvenient. Come on people.

I'm literally sat at my desk inside my house with cash in my jeans pocket now. It's a total non issue. You probably have a bank card or phone in your pocket or on your desk. Some of us even use _note books_. Insane, I know.

> I'm literally sat at my desk inside my house with cash in my jeans pocket now.

Which you, at some point, had to withdraw from an ATM. And which slows down your transaction time at a checkout.

I do have a phone in my pocket. I would have my phone in my pocket anyway. It's great that it now means I don't need to manage bits of paper and metal too.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#353

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 3:08 AM UTC

raspyberr wrote: post #131

How are there so many comments that don't seem to understand you can have both. YOU can keep using cards for literally everything. Cash just need to exist and businesses should be forced to take it. That doesn't mean YOU have to use cash. YOU can live happily without it and use cards but the less well off should still have the right to use cash. But just because they may sometimes use cash that doesn't mean that YOU…

[deleted]

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#354

Post by catgary » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 3:09 AM UTC

mythrwy wrote: post #332

catgary wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, poll after poll has shown that Canadians were overwhelmingly against the truckers [1], and a strong majority supported the use of the emergency act (there was even a point where bringing in the military polled quite strongly with Canadians). There have also been a multitude of reports of violence, including at least one case where protestors attempted to burn down an apartment complex with its residents locked in…

You link to CNN and globalnews though. Not really unbiased sources. And I think we have learned about "polls" over the past few years, at least I have, in the US elections. I have no doubt many Canadians are not happy about the protests. Maybe even most. But I don't believe these polls for one second. It looks like propaganda saying "see, everyone believes XX thing thing the government in power would like you to beli…

Jesus Christ, just go look at the Ipsos/Nanos polls. Do you think CNN made that up out of thin air? Those are reputable polling agencies. Barely 50% of CPC voters supported the convoy protestors methods.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#355

Post by heavyset_go » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 3:09 AM UTC

lhorie wrote: post #151

throwaway22032 wrote: post #3

The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…

> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. I don't think you realize how cashless society really is. For a long time, we've been running on fiat money, debt, and other forms of monetary constructs that are, for all intents and purposes, just numbers in some database without the backing of physical bills. Imagine coordinating all of the stakeholders for a condominium building project with only paper curren…

> The idea of rejecting a cashless society is eerily similar to Project Mayhem from the movie Fight Club, with all the chaotic anarchy that supposedly comes with it.

Fight Club is satire.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#356

Post by thebean11 » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 3:10 AM UTC

throwaway22032 wrote: post #269

pdonis wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's fundamentally just handing over a bit of paper. No, it's handing over bits of paper at the particular physical location of the person or entity you are paying . For some transactions, like paying for your food at a restaurant, that's no problem because you're there anyway. For other transactions, like paying monthly bills, it is a problem.

Nah because banks exist and can make digital transactions when you give them cash. Literally, if you were standing next to me, you can give me 10 quid and I can send someone else that ten quid. You have paid them ten quid using cash, reasonably anonymously in a way that cannot be easily blocked or censored as long as cash exists. This becomes far, far less convenient or feasible if we only have barter and now you nee…

So cash is convenient because you have the option to not use it, and use a digital payment instead? Really?

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#357

Post by leppr » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 3:10 AM UTC

decafninja wrote: post #256

pessimizer wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply not true. Not only is cashless not at all more convenient than cash for minor purchases, and not only are 10% of the US population unbanked, but in addition the access of third parties to purchase records just alarms people. In my circles, I often see people withdrawing out pocket money on a regular basis for small purchases, and using cash for large peer-to-peer purchases that they're unsure of the ta…

I pay with my credit card even for In the case where they don't accept credit, and I can't be bothered to go make the purchase somewhere else, I'll just tell them to take the dollar bill and keep the change. Not having to deal with loose coins is worth it. How is carrying, paying with, and managing cash in your wallet more convenient than tapping a credit card or your phone?

To paraphrase the message you're replying to:

The inconvenience of credit cards manifests itself after making the payment: when you're filling taxes, or when whatever information derived from your payments is used against you.

You're trading immediate versus delayed inconvenience.

At least that was the argument. I won't argue that most people will never feel these second order inconveniences.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#358

Post by defaultname » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 3:11 AM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #268

tshaddox wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anything this reinforces the author's point about the dangers of lack of transparency of "digital jail". How do we know that statement is true? If a crucial part of your argument is the epistemological claim that we obviously can't trust anyone who presents evidence or arguments that we don't like because they could be lying , then there's clearly no way of having a reasoned discussion.

The claim isn’t that broad. The democratic model of society has never trusted executive government to dispense justice unilaterally. Having due process and an open system of courts is a mandatory feature of the democratic society, and when a government decides to suspend those safeguards, that governments own commentary about how little harm it’s decisions are causing do not have any credibility.

Not a single charter right has been overridden. Every act undertaken under the EA is on the official record (available to the opposition parties). Parliament can revoke or partially revoke any component of the EA at any juncture. Then it has a followup discussion/analysis phase built in.

Let's be clear -- there is no silencing component to this act. If someone has unfairly seen their accounts frozen, do a tell-all sad tale to every media outlet you can find. Rant on twitter. Share those Facebook pages. There are plenty of outlets that would love it. There are political parties who would make this their battle cry, using it to seal their own ascension.

But there isn't a single case. Not one. No sad tales. Now accounts have been frozen -- we know that for sure -- but the people whose accounts have been frozen have been organizers and direct participants. People who knew what was coming and had literally weeks of warning to stop or face consequences. There isn't a lot of sympathy there. But the poor waitress in some small town who gave $20...boy, that story will give this country a new government.

Yet...where is it?

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#359

Post by visiblink » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 3:13 AM UTC

I don't generally agree with these protestors, but the government's approach to shutting them down is a major threat to freedom in Canadian society.

Freezing their bank accounts when they have not been proven guilty of any crime is an abuse of power.

Interfering with the social funding drives of a political resistance movement sets a precedent that might affect all political protest in the future.

I don't know what to think of the staged media campaign smearing people for bringing their kids to a protest. Should the state be able prevent you from exposing your kids to your deepest convictions? Maybe they should have smeared my parents for taking me to church, women's centers, and union picnics.

If the police and government had taken the appropriate steps at the outset of this protest (parking tickets, towing vehicles, laying charges for blocking streets), none of this would be even close to necessary now. But as the article points out, that would be very visible, and would require a bit of political courage.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#360

Post by brendoelfrendo » Wed, Feb 23, 2022, 3:13 AM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #239

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never heard of any bank offering that service. I'm not a cash person, but this is literally how cash deposits work (in the US). You fill out a deposit slip with your account information, hand the slip and the cash to the teller, and that's about it. If you own checks, your check book probably came with some deposit slips pre-filled with your account information.

> this is literally how cash deposits work (in the US) I wasn't talking about cash deposits. I was talking about paying bills. I can't go to my bank and give them the account numbers of all my bills and have the bank pay them for me. If I wanted to pay each bill in cash, I would have to schlep to each individual company I pay bills to and pay them.

Ooooh, I understand now, and I do apologize for misreading your comment.

Banks do offer bill pay services, you just set it up and they mail a check every month. To your point, I don't think there's a way to get your bank to send the recipient cash every month, but I feel like that's a moot point since your cash is already in the banking system at that point.