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In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

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Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#321

Post by bugbuddy »

devoutsalsa wrote: post #238
chowells wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carrying cash is exactly how you lose it all to police corruption, sometimes called civil asset forfeiture. Cash is no answer without sufficient legal protections. And if you have sufficient legal protections, cash mostly just buys you inconvenience. The problem isn't businesses going cashless. The problem is leaving structural control over money to profit-seeking enterprises.

The only time I've ever been mugged was by some cops. They stopped me, searched me for drugs, and took cash out of my wallet.

That’s why I only carry enough cash for what I need to spend on. This works great as a budgeting tool also. If you only have $50 cash, you would never end up spending more than that. That and a credit card as a backup in case a cop shows up…

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#322

Post by nickff »

adriand wrote: post #289
nickff wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with you that we shouldn't think in 'red vs. blue' terms, the Emergencies Act was actually written because Justin Trudeau's father had undertaken even more extreme measures in the 1970s, while leader of the same party that Trudeau currently leads. This is a situation where the Liberal party has consistently taken extreme anti-civil liberties positions.

Protesters blocked multiple international borders between Canada and the US, at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars per day ($300 million/day for the Windsor/Detroit crossing alone). There is no "civil liberty" that protects the right to blockade an international border, just as there is no civil liberty to park a convoy of trucks in someone's neighbourhood and then stay there indefinitely. I have family who li…

I'd agree that blocking traffic violates some laws and regulations. Freezing people's bank accounts with no trial or right to appeal still seems like a civil liberties violation to me.

Similarly, the FLQ had no right to kidnap or murder people, but Pierre Trudeau definitely infringed on civil liberties during the October crisis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_Crisis

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#323

Post by dang »

ACanadian wrote: post #270
ripley12 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think those things are true, and I live in Canada. I strongly support Trudeau's actions on this, and I'm sad that the government took so long to crack down on the "truckers". It's deeply damaging to civil society when a few extremists can shut down a city without consequences.

So I assume you were equally outraged not long ago at the blocking of rail lines by indigenous / environmental activists? The truckers were not violent. For real violence, look at the ax-wielding attackers in the recent incident at the gas pipeline site in BC. It is frightening how you and many other people so easily absorb state propaganda. Try thinking a bit about the circumstances here. Why did Trudeau go out of h…

Please make your substantive points without crossing into personal attack. It's hard enough to keep these threads from incinerating themselves even without that.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#324

Post by harry8 »

If you consider this a reasonable thing to have some concerns about, doesn't Moxie looking at anonymous digital cash in signal start to make a lot more sense.

Not endorsing any details of the what or how of it on the basis that I don't understand it. But if criticisms of it start with "Having some fallback for digital monetary transfer seems like a good idea." Then what can you actually do if you're signal. Criticise what could really in a practical, pragmatic way work better to that end seems more worthwhile than most of what I've read about it.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#325

Post by 14 »

heavyset_go wrote: post #320
14 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just realized last night that the self check outs at Walmart don't accept cash, as far as I can tell, and that the only choice is to use their regular till but that is staffed by one person so it is always a long wait which is what I am sure Walmart has planned to discourage its use.

> I just realized last night that the self check outs at Walmart don't accept cash The machines fall back to credit/debit only when they need to restocked with cash or coins, or if the machine needs to be serviced. Some stores don't want to pay for the labor needed to maintain their cash features. The last time I was in a Walmart was over a year ago, but their machines took cash.

I looked and these ones do not. I wonder if the helpers could print out a receipt and walk you over to customer service and check out there but these machines do not have the ability to take cash or dispense it like some I have seen at other places. I will bother to ask the helpers next time I am up there.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#326

Post by catgary »

Arainach wrote: post #317
ACanadian wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I assume you were equally outraged not long ago at the blocking of rail lines by indigenous / environmental activists? The truckers were not violent. For real violence, look at the ax-wielding attackers in the recent incident at the gas pipeline site in BC. It is frightening how you and many other people so easily absorb state propaganda. Try thinking a bit about the circumstances here. Why did Trudeau go out of h…

Playing loud noise at all hours of the night is torture and has been recognized as such since at least the Geneva Convention.

Yeah I think people forget that the protestors were making life miserable for tens of thousands of people with their incessant honking at all hours of the night. The rail protests just gummed up supply chains, this was actually harassing people.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#327

Post by Kalium »

walterbell wrote: post #173
varenc wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the battle is partly won in several U.S. cities (including NYC & SF) which passed laws to mandate acceptance of cash In SF, despite the laws, many businesses openly had a no-cash policy once the pandemic started. "Sorry, Credit Cards Only. Touching money might transmit Covid" is too easy of an argument, even though it's essentially a non-concern now. And I haven't seen businesses go back to accepting cash as lockdo…

Whole Foods created a dedicated checkout lane for cash during the pandemic, in some stores surrounded by a 6-foot plexiglass walls. It was usually the fastest line. Now they are back to all registers accepting cash. > Will be interesting to see if SF authorities actually start trying to enforce this law or not. Great opportunity for a city journalist to assemble a news story. Collect footage to document their experie…

For a lot of businesses, the overhead that comes with handling cash isn't worth it. Especially smaller businesses that would really rather not deal with the risk of being robbed or having a staffer mugged for the nightly drop.

Credit card processors charge a processing fee per transaction, but the overhead of physically managing cash and so on isn't free. I expect many stores will decide to stay cashless for that reason, no matter what their peers decide. Being cash-friendly or cash-only is not free, even if people do tend to think of it that way.

As for SF's law, I think it's worth bearing in mind that it was originally written as a shot at the Amazon Go stores.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#328

Post by Nursie »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #231
rtpg wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's handing over multiple pieces of paper, getting back of mix of paper and coin, and then having to futz around with that. Compare with just tapping a single card against a machine, having records of the payment for yourself (for keeping track of spending, etc), etc. It's obviously not all "objectively better" but "strictly easier" is not true if you amortize across all usages of cash vs non-cash (going to ATMs aft…

Shrug. I guess my note book is less "convenient" than notepad.exe. More moving parts. We're just not on the same page here, sorry, I don't get it at all. It's like, are we counting the waves of the hands or what? I'm literally here now and I've just pressed about 300 buttons to write this message, are movements rationed?

If you're going to argue that one thing is easier than another, then yes, counting movements and time is part of that.

"That'll be $15.77"

Option 1: I look in my wallet and find a ten and a five, put my hand in my pocket and grab a few coins, hand those over. The cashier takes the cash, taps a number into the till, finds the right change and hands it back. Is it arduous, hard labour and the end of the world? No of course not, but it is what it is.

Option 2: I look at my phone to unlock it and wave it over the thingy. Job done. I don't even have to remember to withdraw cash from the bank before I go.

It's easier and quicker, for you and for the cashier. The shop knows it too, particularly supermarkets - they encourage people to use faster payment methods so they can shave even a few seconds off a transaction and push more transactions through at peak times.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#329

Post by bugbuddy »

vkou wrote: post #265
patmorgan23 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should go to some completely unrelated dedicated fund. Like the University fund or state parks fund. Leaving it in the general fund means the state could just grant that money back to the departments.

> It should go to some completely unrelated dedicated fund. Like the University fund or state parks fund. Money is fungible, and if you fund some with , all that means is that funding that was previously earmarked for would get spent on . The solution to highway robbery and grift is not earmarking revenue, the solution is hanging the robbers and grifters off the mile posts.

I second this. While we are at it, we should have a national registry for corrupt or abusive police and other government employees. Once you get on the registry it stays for some years and you get to enjoy the better salary levels of private employers in the meantime.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#330

Post by defaultname »

JPKab wrote: post #195
adriand wrote: post #57

I agree that this needs to be taken very seriously. However, the author overstates his case significantly when he writes: > Doing this to someone—a small business owner in BC, a public servant in Winnipeg, a student in Halifax—who made a small donation to support the convoy is a clear abuse of power. However: > The RCMP, banking sector and federal government said Monday that account-freezing powers bestowed under the…

I think you are forgetting a few key details: 1.) You are taking a government's word for it. As a US citizen, I can tell you that you should never, ever do this. My attitude with any governing entity is to trust but verify. If they don't provide a way to verify, assume they are lying. I'm a former Department of Defense and intelligence contractor. My experience working with these entities hardened my attitude to neve…

> You are taking a government's word for it

Canada is a parliamentary democracy, and the current governing party -- the ones who take all of the heat for every abuse -- are a minority government. They can fall at a moment's notice. Prime Minister in Canada isn't King, and instead is far less powerful than, for instance, the US president.

Yet *not a single case has been brought forward*. A couple of Conservative MPs have vaguely alluded to cases -- ones with almost no details, yet the few details that are brought up don't match any known donor lists (e.g. "Briane from Chilliwack") -- yet despite this being such an incredible hammer to take down this government, crickets.

So yes, I'll take the government's position on this.

"seal-clapping"

Ah, yes, "seal-clapping". That surely conveys the sincerity of your comment. Or we saw mass financing of public mayhem and realized that yes, this is a very real problem. It's a real problem that needs considerable solutions.

"purely because it's directed at a minority whom they have dehumanized for years"

A "minority"? This is perverse. By this measure, every deplorable subset is a protected minority that you will pearl clutch about. Won't someone think about the poor Nazis?

Financed mayhem will always come under the microscope.

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