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In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

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Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#51

Post by mindvirus »

I'm in agreement with the article and the linked Twitter thread about the dangers of a cashless society. Cashless is a place where I've definitely done a 180 - even 5 years ago I would have been 100% for a cashless and crypto based society.

In addition to the power it would give governments and mobs as the article points out, there's already a growing group that's increasingly locked out of society as we transition to a more digital world: people in poverty and the undocumented (often one and the same). You can imagine how a cashless society can create increasing feedback loops of poverty as more and more goods and services are unobtainable to people on the bottom rungs of society.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#52

Post by mrtesthah »

If he’s concerned with rights derived from fungible instruments, I have to wonder why he chose the example of a group already able to raise millions and paints them as victims, while ignoring the millions of existing victims across society who, through homelessness or the injustice of the legal system, find themselves without bank accounts or credit cards, and suffer the material consequences of not being able to use many basic business services.

The author could have chosen to stand in solidarity with those actually suffering, but instead clutches pearls over a theoretical wrong done to a group who never needed nor deserved that concern in the first place.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#53

Post by incompatible »

forty wrote: post #36
walterbell wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient. Incorrect, the battle is partly won in several U.S. cities (including NYC & SF) which passed laws to mandate acceptance of cash. However, cash-acceptance laws were mostly motivated by the unbanked, who are now being used to justify the introduction of nation-state CBDCs. China's CBDC is two-tier and preserves retail bank competition. People close to t…

Can you pay taxes in cash? I don't think it's possible in my country.

The next step will be somebody who is in "digital jail" and can't pay taxes so ends up guilty of tax evasion too.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#54

Post by giobox »

henryfjordan wrote: post #25
deathanatos wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state of Massachusetts no longer operates toll booths along some of its toll roads. You either have an EZ Pass, or (for +$0.60 more) you get a photo taken of your plate, and a bill mailed to you, which is online or check only, no cash option. Or you stay off the toll roads, I guess. IDK what NY's policy is, but it is rather hard to cross the southern Hudson without toll. If you're renting a car, and you don't hav…

If Massachusetts says you owe money, they must accept cash. That's the point of cash being "legal tender", you cannot refuse it if someone is trying to settle a debt. That said, it might be really hard to figure out how to pay in cash.

EZ Pass website says debts can be settled in cash at their service centers. So yes you can settle in cash, but it is likely a massive pain to do as you suggest. Their site also says you can prepay your tolls in cash, to have account in credit, using the same service centers. I suspect almost no one does.

"Cash or Credit/Debit cards are accepted at any of our Customer Service Centers."

> https://www.ezdrivema.com/ezpassma

> https://www.ezdrivema.com/ezpassservicecenters

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#55

Post by datadata »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #3

The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…

Agree with this all, but I don't think the simple answer is sufficient. Cash as an option must be preserved, but the abuse of this power over cashless transactions will still happen. Cash itself will become even more of a probable cause and associated with crime if the abuse is allowed to preside only over the cashless transactions.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#56

Post by chrisseaton »

forty wrote: post #36
walterbell wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient. Incorrect, the battle is partly won in several U.S. cities (including NYC & SF) which passed laws to mandate acceptance of cash. However, cash-acceptance laws were mostly motivated by the unbanked, who are now being used to justify the introduction of nation-state CBDCs. China's CBDC is two-tier and preserves retail bank competition. People close to t…

Can you pay taxes in cash? I don't think it's possible in my country.

> Can you pay taxes in cash? I don't think it's possible in my country.

In most countries a tax payment that is due counts as a debt so is covered by legal tender laws, which do require that people accept payment in cash. It may not be an option presented to you, but it is usually legally available to you, if someone is trying to enforce a debt such as payable tax.

Note that legal tender laws don't apply to a service or product that has not yet been provided - only debts - and also note that a business that has to enforce a debt and that you pay in cash may decline to do business with you in future.

Finally, note that not all currency is legal tender - for example Scottish bank notes are not legal tender, so you can't insist on paying your debts with them.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#57

Post by adriand »

I agree that this needs to be taken very seriously. However, the author overstates his case significantly when he writes:

> Doing this to someone—a small business owner in BC, a public servant in Winnipeg, a student in Halifax—who made a small donation to support the convoy is a clear abuse of power.

However:

> The RCMP, banking sector and federal government said Monday that account-freezing powers bestowed under the Emergencies Act to help authorities deal with convoy protests do not affect donors to the protests, despite unsubstantiated claims by a Conservative MP that a constituent had her bank account frozen over a $50 contribution.

> “At no time, did we provide a list of donors to Financial Institutions,” the RCMP said in a statement Monday. [1]

Facts are important!

1: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-rcmp-banks-an...

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#58

Post by bugbuddy »

jakobdabo wrote: post #13
throwaway22032 wrote: post #3

The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…

> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient, it's hard to beat that. We need more constitutional human rights. It's not okay to take or freeze somebody's money/property without any court decision. Edit: some of the answers assume that I'm against cash or that by saying "battle is lost" I mean cash is gone; My point of "cashless winning" is tha…

Driving is also easier and more convenient than walking but it would be absurd to suggest that everyone should have a car available for them to drive as a constitutional human rights.

Another counter point is that cash is arguably easier and more convenient in some aspects for some people.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#59

Post by chowells »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #3

The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. In the medium to long term it's simply incompatible with any reasonable definition of freedom. Surveillance is bad enough, but a system that allows governments to arbitrarily "turn off" thousands or millions of people at the push of a button is too powerful to not be abused. Even the mere existence of such a system has a chilling effect. Which I suspect is precisel…

Carrying cash is exactly how you lose it all to police corruption, sometimes called civil asset forfeiture.

Cash is no answer without sufficient legal protections. And if you have sufficient legal protections, cash mostly just buys you inconvenience.

The problem isn't businesses going cashless. The problem is leaving structural control over money to profit-seeking enterprises.

Re: In our cashless society, we need to take digital jail seriously

#60

Post by bch »

walterbell wrote: post #22
jakobdabo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The simple answer is to reject the cashless society. No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient, it's hard to beat that. We need more constitutional human rights. It's not okay to take or freeze somebody's money/property without any court decision. Edit: some of the answers assume that I'm against cash or that by saying "battle is lost" I mean cash is gone; My point of "cashless winning" is tha…

> No, that battle is lost. Cashless is easier and more convenient. Incorrect, the battle is partly won in several U.S. cities (including NYC & SF) which passed laws to mandate acceptance of cash. However, cash-acceptance laws were mostly motivated by the unbanked, who are now being used to justify the introduction of nation-state CBDCs. China's CBDC is two-tier and preserves retail bank competition. People close to t…

> Incorrect, the battle is partly won in several U.S. cities (including NYC & SF) which passed laws to mandate acceptance of cash.

I presume this[0] is that story... If i understand correctly, federal law also requires cash to be accepted to repay a debt, which perhaps interesting to some, usually includes restaurants; you eat your meal, and incur a debt doing so. Perhaps with takeout they could refuse to hand over the bag/box until its paid w a credit/debit card, which is their prerogative (except apparently in SF, NYC, ...).

[0] https://www.technocracy.news/cash-is-king-san-francisco-to-b...

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