Live data from Hacker News

Machine learning is still too hard for software engineers

nyckel.com

51–60 of 154 posts

Re: Machine learning is still too hard for software engineers

#51

Can confirm. Data science team just schooled the entire engineering department in our Deep Racer tournament.

In the gocoder Bomberland competition, my DL AI trained on 1.5 billion timesteps just lost against someone handcrafting algorithms in Python in one day.

You're absolutely right, sometimes, simple and predictable solutions are much better than AI magic ^^

Re: Machine learning is still too hard for software engineers

#52
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad pipeline means bad data, and bad data means bad model. Its as simple as that.

Bad pipeline is too strong. But good enough pipeline + good enough models > bad pipeline + great model

My wife is a researcher at Stanford doing some ML stuff and the constant painpoint isn't the researching of novel models or maths or whatever, it's the IT hell of managing a pipeline and data acquisition. I've helped her introduce things like Docker to the lab which seems to have helped but still - software engineering is a totally different skill that really hinders ML work.

Re: Machine learning is still too hard for software engineers

#55
post #42

"Machine Learning is too difficult" ... says company selling "ML platform [which] can be used by anyone and it only takes minutes to train your first model." No, actually, you're just being dishonest. Even if you hide TensorFlow and the keras models behind a nice GUI, people still need that mathematics knowledge to succeed. And yes, pre-training is great. But you need a shitload of stochastic analysis to make sure th…

If the data is garbage then it doesn't really matter how good your maths knowledge is, I challenge you to get a working "tank detection AI" when you are just training it on pictures of different cats. The Nuclear Power industry is starting to think about stopping doing all designs on paper, maybe in a few decades they will have achieved this, sending a message that good data is the thing they should work on first isn…

> I challenge you to get a working "tank detection AI" when you are just training it on pictures of different cats.

Unless you're focusing on German tanks :)

Re: Machine learning is still too hard for software engineers

#56

"Machine Learning is too difficult" ... says company selling "ML platform [which] can be used by anyone and it only takes minutes to train your first model." No, actually, you're just being dishonest. Even if you hide TensorFlow and the keras models behind a nice GUI, people still need that mathematics knowledge to succeed. And yes, pre-training is great. But you need a shitload of stochastic analysis to make sure th…

This goes a little too far. For traditional ML, sure, you need lots of deep statistical knowledge. But the fact is that deep learning is different: it's mostly a black box. no one understands exactly what they're doing, how they're biased, and how exactly these models understand things differently than humans, whether you have a PhD in statistics or not.

Because of that, doing deep learning consists of a bunch of cobbled together heuristics for getting good results and probing the model to give a human an intuition for whether it's learning correctly. The tricks and tips for steering that black box have mostly been developed in the last decade: it is not a super deep well.

These tricks and heuristics are like the knowledge needed to be a technician in a nuclear facility, not the knowledge needed to build the nuclear facility in the first place. It's not nothing, to be sure, but unless you're a researcher developing new novel architectures, a very shallow understanding of the statistics will go a very long way.

Re: Machine learning is still too hard for software engineers

#57

I'd argue software engineering is still too hard for ML engineers. Most of ML (not research but commercial applications of what's already been demonstrated) is now well within the realm of engineering, but there are few standard practices, bodies of knowledge, or agreed on processes for doing anything. These are problems that engineering formalism solve, not another auto-ml tool. Maybe I'm saying the same thing as th…

I'd argue software engineering is still too hard for software engineers.

Re: Machine learning is still too hard for software engineers

#58
Coming from a background in computational quantum chemistry, it’s interesting to see all of the people who say ML is “easy” after taking a few online courses and reading some books on data science. If it’s so easy, invent AGI then, since that is the holy grail of machine learning.

Most of these people claiming expertise do not have a deep grasp of the mathematical fundamentals required for state of the art research in the field. Can you develop a neural network with features that are invariant to permutational and rotational symmetries? If so, how do you efficiently generate the irreproducible representations of the product of the symmetric and special orthogonal groups for use in a fast Fourier transform? What is minimum description length and why is it so fundamental? How do you solve trust-region problems on Riemannian manifolds? Throwing an off-the-shelf PyTorch library at a problem does not make one an expert in machine learning.

Re: Machine learning is still too hard for software engineers

#59
Sort of hijacking, but I've always wondered: Where are our 'neural binutils'?

I want to be able to compose these tools like I would random unix ones: Something like 'Identify album covers in this image | extract the text in said covers | spotify api'.

It seems like there are so many breakthrough models but both due to technical (size/compute) and industrial ($$$) concerns they remain out of reach for random devs, let alone packageable into a `grep` style composable tool.

Re: Machine learning is still too hard for software engineers

#60

"Machine Learning is too difficult" ... says company selling "ML platform [which] can be used by anyone and it only takes minutes to train your first model." No, actually, you're just being dishonest. Even if you hide TensorFlow and the keras models behind a nice GUI, people still need that mathematics knowledge to succeed. And yes, pre-training is great. But you need a shitload of stochastic analysis to make sure th…

I agree entirely with this.

Software developers HAVE to have an understanding of the subject they're developing for. Computers are not brains, and they are not able to understand the objective or context in which they run.

I could spit out their crappy tagline - "the hardest thing about developing __X__ should be __Y__, but it often isn’t." - for almost any topic.

"The hardest thing about developing an inertial navigation system should be getting clean sensor readings, but it often isn't"

"The hardest thing about developing MITM proxies should be getting certs configured, but it often isn't"

"The hardest thing about developing web extensions should be setting up your manifest file, but it often isn't"

"The hardest thing about web development should be handling https requests, but it often isn't"

"The hardest thing about having a baby should be labor, but it often isn't"

"The hardest thing about making a car should be getting high quality steel, but it often isn't"

ON AND ON.

Post reply on HN