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I was wrong, we need crypto

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Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#311

Post by iudqnolq »

pseudo0 wrote: post #213
bryanlarsen wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thousands of people were out of work for most of a month. For example, the Rideau Centre, which employs 1500, was shut down. Thousands of people had to move out of their homes because they couldn't sleep with the continuous honking. One idiot even brought a train horn. And that was just Ottawa. The ambassador bridge shutdown was much worse. For instance, Ford shut down an Ohio plant employing 1600 due to lack of part…

Were businesses pressured to close by the city and the police because people were allegedly flouting mask mandates, or to deny the protestors food, water, heat, and washrooms in -20 Celsius weather? The business closures advised by the city and police certainly furthered their war of attrition against the protestors, despite the lack of evidence of any real threat. On the contrary, a number of small businesses remain…

It's fundamentally non-serious to claim the protestors were following all applicable mask mandates. You're the first person I've seen to claim that. Take a look at any picture in the news, or that the protestors have posted.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#312

Post by datadata »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #308
datadata wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm making analogies so that you have to substantiate your argument. It isn't clear that just because there is a large number of something, the entire ecosystem must be worthless, which is what you originally said. You can't clone bitcoin at no cost. To clone bitcoin you would have to invest the same amount of energy that has been expended thus far to proof of work.

It isn't clear that just because there is a large number of something, the entire ecosystem must be worthless, which is what you originally said. You're misinterpreting my original statement and ignoring my explanation. If too many people can easily make the product, the market quickly becomes saturated ... There are not 10,000 companies listed in the stock market all producing the same type of product.

My point is that the number of cryptos/websites/stocks doesn't matter at all. A saturated market does not lead to a failed market, a saturated market just means there is demand for something. Sure, most cryptos are probably going to become worthless, but all it takes is one to work, and one that isn't easy to copy. In the stock example, maybe 9999 companies go bankrupt, but there is still a market, and whoever survives is going to make money.

You are basically saying that there can't ever be consensus because there isn't yet a consensus. That's a possible and maybe even likely outcome, but it doesn't obviously follow.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#313

Post by _9omd »

erulabs wrote: post #74
dylkil wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second problem is some of the smartest people in the world rather point out its flaws than recognise the potential and help fix the flaws

I've long stopped believing the smartest people in the world accomplish much at all besides doing extremely well in systems others have designed. Certainly the vast amount of time I've spent thinking about monetary policy offers me no real gains in my life. I know a group of medical doctors and they are brilliant, but they are brilliant critics . They are smarter than me - they focus on what matters. Small things, th…

Well said!

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#314

Post by erulabs »

imtringued wrote: post #282
erulabs wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then there would be a black market, immediately. Prohibition tends to be exceptionally violent. The point being: using a decentralized currency makes authoritarianism harder. This is not exactly a radical idea: foreign currencies have very often been banned from use in dictatorships. Why people kick back on "internet money" being a tool to use against abusive governments is strange: It's more or less it's only re…

Black market? I thought Bitcoin is a "store of value" for investors? Those investors want legitimacy so grandmas buy Bitcoin.

Not to start a debate, but my suggestion is to ignore anyone who phrases a sentence such that value can exist inside of objects. Nothing is a store of value, because value doesn't appear to exist - it's like color - it's an interpretation of available information.

Bitcoin is a currency that is hard to stop. That makes it a tool to antagonize authoritarians with.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#315

Post by _9omd »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #272
datadata wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you see the large number of cryptocurrencies an argument supporting their value going to zero? This is like saying that the number of websites is still going up, therefore the value of the internet will go to zero. A more charitable analysis would look at the number of users of cryptocurrency, and especially the number of users of the most prevalent cryptocurrencies, which is indisputably rising.

Why do you see the large number of cryptocurrencies an argument supporting theoretical value going to zero? If too many people can easily make the product, the market quickly becomes saturated and the value starts to tend toward zero and people losing interest in it. Also, in this particular case the product is defective. It doesn't actually function as stated --- as a currency that is widely accepted to buy a huge v…

You're missing the idea of network effects. Yes, you an easily make a clone of Bitcoin (or other cryptos), but you cannot easily clone the network effect it has. The value of a crypto is in the network, not the code, and this value grows exponentially with the number of the people using the network (Metcalf's Law[0]). Despite the increase in total number of cryptocurrencies, the number of people using the big networks (Bitcoin, Ethereum, etc.) is growing, and thus their network values are growing.

This really shouldn't be surprising to anyone familiar with the growth of the web. Just like cloning a crypo, it'd be trivial to make a new Twitter, but extremely difficult to gain the same level of network effect.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe%27s_law

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#316

Post by erulabs »

ryan_lane wrote: post #270
erulabs wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then there would be a black market, immediately. Prohibition tends to be exceptionally violent. The point being: using a decentralized currency makes authoritarianism harder. This is not exactly a radical idea: foreign currencies have very often been banned from use in dictatorships. Why people kick back on "internet money" being a tool to use against abusive governments is strange: It's more or less it's only re…

Regular people in dictatorships aren't hiding money in cryptocurrency, because they don't have money to stash away, usually. The rich in those societies may be, and they're likely rich through being affiliated with the dictator. You aren't helping liberate the poor and desperate. You're helping oligarchs hide their money from domestic or international seizure after the dictator falls, and a new government steps in.

I don't follow the argument: the oligarchs aren't using crypto, so using crypto helps oligarchs?

If the average person, wealthy or affiliated or not, has a way of avoiding the mandated use of a fiat currency, and that pressure creates an upper and lower bound for how badly the leaders of their country can manipulate the currency supply, yes I believe that helps the poor and desperate. If part of liberty is ownership, then yes, it even helps liberate them too.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#317

Post by _9omd »

I think a lot of people are missing the big picture here, because they're against the trucker protest. It's actually quite possible to think the trucker protest was stupid, and incredibly damaging to locals (via noise pollution and sleep deprivation), while still being pro crypto (I am).

The question is not is crypto valuable because of this one protest. The question is, what happens when you DO agree with a protest against the state. In that case, wouldn't you want a censorship resistant currency as a way of fueling peaceful revolution?

Crypto is no about dismantling the state. It's about the recognition that the state is no infallible, and on a long enough timeline will make decisions that are harmful to citizens. Crypto is an insurance policy against corruption and power, which can happen anywhere.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#318

Post by pyuser583 »

joshuamorton wrote: post #186
pyuser583 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. The occupy movement did block main roads. When they were doing their thing, my drive to work (and back) tripled. BLM did the same. Police need to be able to stop those who break the law, while simultaneously protecting those who are merely protesting. Even if they’re part of the same crowd.

I can find some examples of protestors blocking main roads and getting arrested the same day ( https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/10/occupy-wall-s... among others), but no news or reporting on continuous multi-day blockages (probably because, as far as I can tell, there are tons of examples of them being swiftly arrested, same with BLM). But not, like literally making roads impassable at all hours for days (…

So with BLM there were blockages of one main road, then another, then another. Not continuous. At “protest time” which is when people were getting off work.

Lasted for a few days at most, not like in Canada.

Occupy protestors took a nearby park. Tried to stay out of the way otherwise.

It’s complicated whether they were responsible for blockage. Initially it was police who were in the way. After a while the police left but the activists stayed. The park and area around in became uninhabitable and unnavigable. Garbage in streets.

Very different protests. And very different from what’s happening in Canada.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#319

Post by bb88 »

colpabar wrote: post #229
bb88 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's lean into this. > to organize and protest. All the sit-ins in the past 60 years of protesting, ended up in people being arrested. And fines (as well as imprisonment) were levied against the arrested protesters for disruption of government operations and services. Further these days, often protesters go in expecting to be arrested. Activists will often seek people who aren't afraid of being arrested. If you caus…

> Hoover's FBI more or less got away with infiltration and assassination because the enemy was "stinking hippies" or "terrorists". But don't you see any kind of resemblance to that and what's happening currently with the all the "nazis" and "white supremacists"? It's odd to me that you can mention COINTELPRO and think that things like that don't still happen. I guess you can rightly say that I have no proof of that.…

There's a lot of people that hate the CIA with good reason. The FBI has apparently never met an agent involved killing it didn't like, and sure there's lots of corruption on the local level, from cops to politicians.

But COINTELPRO is the premier example of law enforcement corruption in the US, and those who were affected by it still live with it to this day. And I don't think anyone really wants justice served without due process in the US these days. And arguing that your opponents support that or are willing to look the other way when it happens is rather unfair.

If the truckers staged a boycott instead of an occupation, I feel like their side might have a lot more sympathy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_bus_boycott

As to your red herring about the right being labeled as "nazi"s, I think the media does a pretty good job of portraying the "Racist Right" from the "Right". It's also pretty clear whether a politician/person/group/etc is willing to openly denouce racism or not.

Re: I was wrong, we need crypto

#320

Post by pseudo0 »

iudqnolq wrote: post #311
pseudo0 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were businesses pressured to close by the city and the police because people were allegedly flouting mask mandates, or to deny the protestors food, water, heat, and washrooms in -20 Celsius weather? The business closures advised by the city and police certainly furthered their war of attrition against the protestors, despite the lack of evidence of any real threat. On the contrary, a number of small businesses remain…

It's fundamentally non-serious to claim the protestors were following all applicable mask mandates. You're the first person I've seen to claim that. Take a look at any picture in the news, or that the protestors have posted.

I'm sure some people were ignoring the mask mandates. My point though was that it's fundamentally non-serious to claim that is sufficient reason to shut down blocks of businesses for weeks during a non-violent protest. I find the alternative explanation, that it was a tactical move to starve the protestors out, far more compelling.
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