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IRS to adopt Login.gov as user authentication tool

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Re: IRS to adopt Login.gov as user authentication tool

#51

Post by mmaunder »

mdb31 wrote: post #15

I'm a foreigner (yes, I know, sorry, sorry) who is a "US Person" and thus needs to (and, to be perfectly clear, is happy to, I'm sorry, I'm not-sorry, I'm sorry about being not-sorry?) pay US income tax. The IRS system is, by far, the worst I've ever had to deal with, and in this I'm comparing the US to countries like Rwanda, where, for some weird reason, I'm also required to pay taxes. Getting an ITIN (sort-of like…

I was a US person with an ITIN and have become a naturalized citizen. ITINs are very different to SSN. Honestly I've found the USA very easy to deal with compared to the UK, France of South Africa where I've lived.

The challenge with an ITIN is it blurs into immigration, visa status, whether you are violating visa terms, whether your ITIN - which you can get on a tourist visa - is an indication that you're trying to build a life here when you're just supposed to be a tourist, and so on. That doesn't even get into property ownership, or being a director or shareholder in a US corporation with an ITIN and various visa types.

Re: IRS to adopt Login.gov as user authentication tool

#53

Post by warmwaffles »

kkielhofner wrote: post #36
zht wrote: post #6

love that Americans are always worried about some sort of national ID/database of citizens being used for nefarious needs

When it comes down to it the US has a fear driven culture, down to what essentially becomes paranoia. US violent crime statistics are at near all-time lows. Yet I know many, many people that will not leave their house without at least one firearm. This is in small towns that haven't seen a violent crime justifying the use of deadly force in many years. Many of these same people refuse to "live in fear" of the coronav…

> yet your entire life is accessible to the NSA.

I'll bet you money that most Americans are not okay with this either.

Re: IRS to adopt Login.gov as user authentication tool

#54

Post by jacobr1 »

jcadam wrote: post #14
zht wrote: post #6

love that Americans are always worried about some sort of national ID/database of citizens being used for nefarious needs

The main issue is if it's required. Not so worried about myself - I'm a veteran which means my fingerprints and DNA are already on file with the feds somewhere :), but US Citizens with no particular connection to the federal government absolutely shouldn't have to need a "National ID."

We are so weird about this. We already have national "identifier" - the social security number. Pretty much everyone must use it because of both social security and taxes, but also due to private use cases. We should just admit this is the case and manage it better. The man-in-woods scenarios where one can opt-out are just not very realistic.

Now as a matter of authentication - verifying the identifier, we have left this up to the states in the past, with opt-in federal IDs for various purposes. Though with RealID this is being standardized. Login.gov is a way to have a digital equivalent.

Re: IRS to adopt Login.gov as user authentication tool

#55

Post by vineyardmike »

jcadam wrote: post #14
zht wrote: post #6

love that Americans are always worried about some sort of national ID/database of citizens being used for nefarious needs

The main issue is if it's required. Not so worried about myself - I'm a veteran which means my fingerprints and DNA are already on file with the feds somewhere :), but US Citizens with no particular connection to the federal government absolutely shouldn't have to need a "National ID."

> the federal government absolutely shouldn't have to need a "National ID."

But every state has an ID system, and they're all known to each other, and tied to your SSN which is a national id number. We already essentially have all the parts, just messier.

> my fingerprints and DNA are already on file with the feds somewhere

Same. Probably same for lots of people.

> US Citizens with no particular connection to the federal government

We all have a connection... we live in the US!

Re: IRS to adopt Login.gov as user authentication tool

#56

Post by babypuncher »

zht wrote: post #6

love that Americans are always worried about some sort of national ID/database of citizens being used for nefarious needs

Especially when we already have social security numbers, which are used for nefarious purposes by non-government entities all the time. And if you're over ~25, odds are your SSN is out in the wild thanks to Equifax.

Replacing SSNs with an alternative built on public-key cryptography seems like the best way forward. I do not understand the opposition to this. Having citizens sign their tax returns, loan applications, etc. with their private key instead of just writing their SSN on it would eliminate most SSN-related identity theft and fraud.

Re: IRS to adopt Login.gov as user authentication tool

#57

Post by pandama »

If you check the previous stories tagged by ID.me (https://www.fedscoop.com/tag/id-me/), you'll see some awesome articles sponsored by the same about how Arizon has already saved $40 Billion and how this is great against cyber risk.

Sponsored News needs a much more prominent badge. #bringbacktheblinktag

Re: IRS to adopt Login.gov as user authentication tool

#58

Post by mdb31 »

plandis wrote: post #40
mdb31 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but WHY? I mean, I'm happy to pay my US taxes. Heck, I'm even happy to pay someone to pay my US taxes. But... neither of those options seem to work? I mean, just to back to Rwanda: it's an east-African country that is pretty much a dictatorship and had a real-life genocide less than 20 years ago. Yet, in Rwanda, I can just use my native cell phone number as my tax identifier, pay then what I need to pay, and be…

There are some groups who oppose effectively all taxes and seek to make paying tax as hard as possible so that other people will agree with them that taxes are a pain. For example see Americans for Tax Reform working to torpedo California’s push to simplify state taxes a few years back. You also have corporate interests that profit from convoluted tax filing and lobby the government to keep it confusing so individual…

OK, I understand that some/many Americans dislike paying taxes. I do not exactly like it either.

But, it seem like a particular US infliction to make paying taxes as hard as possible? Plus, they sanction you in extreme ways if you don't manage to jump through all the hoops?

I pay taxes in many jurisdictions. Here is my experience: Netherlands (my home country): the tax authorities send me a proposal about payable taxes. This includes income from my business, my partner's job, our common investments, and some investments/business interests that are exclusive to me. I correct whatever is required (with the deadline being April 1st), and I'll get my final settlement sometime in June/July.

Germany/France: I provide the tax authorities with my Dutch tax identification number, and they confirm they're fine with that in 3-4 months time. Rwanda, Nigeria and Zimbabwe: I also provide my native tax details (sometimes using my mobile number, sometimes using my NL 'SSN'), and they're fine with that, sometimes after billing me a small percentage over some income.

US: I honestly have non idea where I stand. The IRS refuses to talk to me, yet summons me to physical meetings in the past that I cannot legally attend. I have hired several attorneys, none of which seem to be able to help.

I probably owe several HUNDREDS of dollars in US tax. I've not visited the US since 2004, and have not done any business there since 2002.

Yet... I'm apparently a much-wanted tax fugitive in the US. Does that count on a FAANG-inbound resume?

Re: IRS to adopt Login.gov as user authentication tool

#59

Post by booleandilemma »

kkielhofner wrote: post #36
zht wrote: post #6

love that Americans are always worried about some sort of national ID/database of citizens being used for nefarious needs

When it comes down to it the US has a fear driven culture, down to what essentially becomes paranoia. US violent crime statistics are at near all-time lows. Yet I know many, many people that will not leave their house without at least one firearm. This is in small towns that haven't seen a violent crime justifying the use of deadly force in many years. Many of these same people refuse to "live in fear" of the coronav…

The NSA acting like a creepy Big Brother-secret police organization is a separate issue.

Re: IRS to adopt Login.gov as user authentication tool

#60

Post by ohgodplsno »

mmaunder wrote: post #51
mdb31 wrote: post #15

I'm a foreigner (yes, I know, sorry, sorry) who is a "US Person" and thus needs to (and, to be perfectly clear, is happy to, I'm sorry, I'm not-sorry, I'm sorry about being not-sorry?) pay US income tax. The IRS system is, by far, the worst I've ever had to deal with, and in this I'm comparing the US to countries like Rwanda, where, for some weird reason, I'm also required to pay taxes. Getting an ITIN (sort-of like…

I was a US person with an ITIN and have become a naturalized citizen. ITINs are very different to SSN. Honestly I've found the USA very easy to deal with compared to the UK, France of South Africa where I've lived. The challenge with an ITIN is it blurs into immigration, visa status, whether you are violating visa terms, whether your ITIN - which you can get on a tourist visa - is an indication that you're trying to…

> Honestly I've found the USA very easy to deal with compared to the UK, France of South Africa where I've lived.

???

France as a foreigner:

You arrive in the country, your employer already declares all taxes for you. While you may not have a tax ID to log in to impots.gouv.fr yet, everything is already registered in your name (because you gave either your SSN, or your visa number, or anything else). You send a letter to ask for a username/password to use to log in on the website, which arrives about two weeks later.

Your taxes are collected monthly, and at the end of the year you pay the leftover/get paid what you overpaid. You can tell the state at any point how much you think you will earn, and it gets reevaluated. Your yearly tax filing is prefilled, and there's no need for any software.

As an employer, the URSSAF website is, while hell to navigate, very clear in how much you owe. Give out your SIRET/SIREN, your tax report, and your taxes are done.

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