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Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

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Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you might have missed how the cure for polio was rolled out so quickly. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/05/03/9887569... Marketing is a tool. It can be misused. It can also be used for good. In fact, now that I raise the point, I wonder why nobody's thought to use ad microtargeting for COVID-19 vaccine campaigns yet. They probably have and I just haven't noticed, because when good marketing's worki…

The polio vaccine serves an actual need, and if you're not selling something I would refrain from using the word marketing. As for the marketing of 'good' products: even marketing a good product comes with the implied 'right to market', where possibly none exists. You could get people hooked on very high quality vehicles for short trips because of convenience when the alternative, a bike, or even walking are perfectl…

> The polio vaccine serves an actual need, and if you're not selling something I would refrain from using the word marketing.

Then I believe basing policy off your definition of marketing would require first a tribunal to decide if something is "marketing" or... Whatever the polio campaign was. Because the national, then international, polio eradication project absolutely included perception and behavior modification.

Polio was only paralytic to a fraction of a fraction of its victims. For most, it was a bad bout of diarrhea and several bad days. And the vaccine (unlike the safer designs we have now) was either killed virus or half-killed live strain; in one terribly unfortunate batch, it caused polio. People had legitimate reason to believe things were good enough as-is (after all, most everyone had either gotten and survived polio or knew someone who had, with far, far fewer "Uncle Harry got it and he's in an iron lung" stories by volume) and getting some (possibly still-active) vaccine shot into their arms was going to be a bad long-term decision.

Against all of that, the March of Dimes did a huge amount of work to get people to go against their inclinations and the evidence available to their eyes to move polio from an "everybody eventually gets this" common environmental risk to a "makes the news" occasional outbreak. It's a brilliant success story of perception adjustment, on par with Colonel Stapp's crusade to make the seat-belt mandatory (speaking of which... http://persuasion-and-influence.blogspot.com/2015/02/wear-se...).

> Marketing is all about changing perceptions

No disagreement here. Sometimes, it's used to help people believe that the world can be other than it is, if we only all change our behavior to make it so.

> I used the cosmetics industry as an example because they've turned this into a veritable industry: people are made to feel terribly unhappy

No disagreement that cosmetics is full of bad actors and bad action, but people were putting eyeshadow and rouge on back when the closest thing we had to marketing was some statues declaring that a dead pharaoh was a cool guy (with the name scribbled out and replaced by some other dead pharaoh's name). I submit to you the humble possibility that people don't doll up because they're compelled by advertisers to do so (though I've no doubt advertising plays a huge factor in the way they choose to doll up).

> even marketing a good product comes with the implied 'right to market', where possibly none exists

The right to freedom of speech isn't universal, I agree. I submit that we do more harm than good trying to split the hair on deciding when something is freely-offered speech and when something is marketing, however. Good luck squaring those circles without getting eerily close to "prior restraint on open communication of ideas."

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#742
post #8

Citing adblock feels like clickbait. Google Tag Manager can't run ads so I don't follow the comparison. Marketing analytics could always side-step anti-adblocking tools through server-side tracking.

Right. Everything in the article is wrong. GTM is still GTM and can be trivially blocked; the container itself isn't moving server-side. It's just gained the ability to proxy data to third parties instead of needing to load scripts for every tracker. This is better for performance, and should be explicitly in control of exactly what data is passed on to where. All you really lose is the ability to block a subset of a…

[deleted]

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't have a problem with websites measuring what I view, click, add to cart or buy. I want them to be able to see what doesn't work in terms of user experience. The problem is not that they measure things. The problem is that they enter the user's private area; they run code on the user's computer and probably grab information about the user too (I don't know exactly how tag managers work because I have never us…

No, you are voluntarily downloading and running their code on your computer. What you describe is hacking into somebody's computer, that is different. Stores take measurements about their customers, so do sites.

> Stores take measurements about their customers, so do sites.

When stores use Bluetooth or other tech to track their customers movement within their stores, that is also a creepy and unethical.

Also "voluntarily" is a complete misnomer as nobody is volunteering for this, a more correct world would be "unwittingly" or possibly "begrudgingly" depending on their level of tech saviness.

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't have the time or energy to block JavaScript and/or manually inspect each domain's requests to figure out if they use server-side tracking or not." By default, I don't run JavaScript. I don't see blocking JS as a problem - in fact, it's a blessing as the web is blinding fast without it - and also most of the ads just simply disappear if JS is not running. On occasions when I need JS (only about 3-5% of sites)…

> and also most of the ads just simply disappear if JS is not running. since we are talking about the future I'd like to point out that they can always serve ads from the origin domain without javascript. I mean the anti-adblock battle will evolve until each page we visit is a single image file that we have to OCR to remove ads. then we will need AI, and they will have captchas that will ask which breakfast cereal is…

"...they can always serve ads from the origin domain without JavaScript."

But most of them don't. Yes, they can change their model and in time they likely will.

As it stands now, one doesn't have to watch ads on the internet if one doesn't want to - all it takes is a little perseverance and they're gone. If one can't rise to the occasion then one has a high tolerance for ads.

Even YouTube can be viewed without ads with packages such as NewPipe and similar.

You're right about AI, OCR etc. and I think in time it will come to that.

It seems to me people like us will always be ahead because we've the motivation to rid ourselves of ads. It reminds me of the senseless copyright debate - if I can see the image then I can copy it. No amount of hardware protection can stop me substituting a camera for my eyes. What's more, as the fidelity goes up HD, 4k etc. the better the optical transfer will be (less comparative fidelity loss).

That said, the oldest technology - standard TV - is still the hardest to remove ads from. Yes, one can record a program and race though the ads later (which most of us are very adept at doing) but it's still inconvenient.

What I want is a PVR/STB that figures out the ads and bypasses them. Say I want to watch TV from 7 to 11pm (4 hours) and there's a total of one hour of ads and other breaks in that time that I don't want to watch then I want my AI-aware PVR/STB to suggest that I start watching at 8pm instead of 7 as this will allow it to progressively remove ads on-the-fly across the evening.

The person who makes one of these devices will make a fortune. If the industry tries to ban it (as it will) then we resort to a software version and download it into the hardware. Sooner or later it's bound happen and I'll be an early adopter.

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marketing is almost by definition not going to act ethically: their whole goal is to create a need where there isn't an organic one, and the KPIs by which marketing departments are run are proof positive of that. Nobody starts off with 'what would be the natural limit of our product sales', instead they start off with 'what is the total addressable market and how do we maximize our fraction of that' implying that if…

> Marketing is almost by definition not going to act ethically: their whole goal is to create a need where there isn't an organic one That's very single-minded. Marketing mainly informs about a product, which obviously also works even if you already have the need for it. And it can also help in realizing a specific need which the customer has not pinpointed yet. That's the whole point of acting ethically, to support,…

Indeed. That's exactly what our marketing department does.

Our product helps our customers comply with the law. The law created the need, we're just trying to make our customers lives easier by assisting them with complying.

So our marketing team focuses on informing potential customers what it takes to be in compliance as few are well aware of what it takes, and how our product can help with that.

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#746
post #25

God damn... this is it, this is the end-game. There's no way to fight this unless you customize and maintain blocking scripts for each individual website. Yes, websites could always have done this, but the REST (CDN-bypassing) requests' cost and the manual maintenance for the telemetry endpoints and storage was an impediment that Google just gives them a drop-in solution for :( I think Google is happy to eat some of…

You still pay for the app engine requests. This whole product is just a hash script that configures the proxy for you.

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#747
post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... in the tech-commentary echo chamber, perhaps. The outside world is more apathetic than hostile to it.

It shouldn’t be on the todo list of the average user to be knowledgeable on this subject, just like the average consumer should not have to be an expert in airbags to expect the ones installed in their car to work.

Absolutely. People don't care about this stuff and honestly, I'm not expecting them to, because I don't care about much of the world either. But I do care about this issue and so, I'd like better regulation so that the individuals' privacy is better protected, with the same level of them not caring.

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much would you pay per month for custom-per-site tracking blocking as described here?

Nothing. No one should pay for not being tracked.

In principle I agree, and I support having the GDPR in effect globally, so that these server-side data sharing solutions are illegal without opt-in consent.

Unfortunately there’s a reality gap between “GDPR everywhere” and the United States and other countries, and that gap was being filled previously by anti-tracking lists maintained essentially for free out of the goodwill of people’s hearts. Now that Google is - and has been - using server-side proxies, those tracking lists won’t scale without human caretaking. Any human versus the entire web would burn out in a day.

So the choice is either to pay humans to enforce our anti-tracking beliefs against scummy corps, or to donate to politicians that believe in GDPR so they can try to make it illegal, or to refuse to pay anything and accept the status quo of being tracked. We’ve reached the end game of the “pay nothing until it’s fixed, then continue paying nothing” ethos: Google has outplayed us, and website owners can afford to pay to track us. I don’t like this, and neither do you. I think it’s time to pay money to fight back, and you do not think it's appropriate to pay money to fight back.

If you or anyone have a good idea on how zero-cost effort can somehow solve the tracking problem, share that with others in a useful reply to the post somewhere. You don’t have to convince me that such ideas exist: you have to convince others who share your “at no cost to me” beliefs to invest their time and energy in your zero-cost idea. And, whatever else I’m uncertain, I guarantee they’re not going to see such a reply down here in this thread that started with a pricing question.

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#749
post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Default configurations of logging on most servers is illegal now under GDPR since it saves IP addresses.

It's not illegal to store such information in default logs per se, even without explicit consent, if it would fall into the "legitimate interest" category[0], e.g. you need it to operate the service and prevent abuse, and there is no less intrusive way to e.g. reasonably monitor for and prevent abuse. However, you cannot share such logs without consent, you still have an obligation to inform users about your legitima…

Gdpr.eu is not an official EU resource. There is no official guidance saying that IP address in logs falls under "legitimate interest" and every lawyer I asked advised against it "just to be on the safe side".

One actually added: Do you really want to test our government's understanding of "legitimate interest" for your business in court?

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#750
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think the solution here is a technical one. This should just be solved by legislation. Google Analytics has been recently ruled illegal in multiple European countries. And either this already is illegal under the same laws or it should be made so.

> Google Analytics has been recently ruled illegal in multiple European countries. Just about everything hosted by a non EU company just got ruled illegal (in the EU that is).

Not quite - only everything US-based, since they fall under the purview of the cloud act, which is incompatible with the GDPR (on purpose.. this is an entirely self-inflicted wound by the US).
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