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Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

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Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#121

Post by Spivak »

DangitBobby wrote: post #115
Spivak wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are thinking about this wrong. When you are in a situation where you take the standard dedication then you suddenly lose the benefit of doing any tax-deductible actions. So teachers across the board were immediately disincentivized from buying school supplies because it’s effectively not tax deductible anymore. I rant about this all the time with charitable donations. Any behavior the government wants to incentiv…

Are you really suddenly not going to spend $500 on your students because now only $450 of it goes towards goods instead of the full $500? That doesn't really make any sense to me. Especially if the standard deduction grants you an additional $1k that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

By that reasoning there was never even a point to having the deduction in the first place.

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#122

Post by togs »

Idk. I just give them my info and TurboTax navigates the labyrinth that is the U.S. Tax Code. I was actually pleasantly surprised with how easy TT made things. Maybe it's bad that TT gives my info to third parties, but arguing against the practice is fighting an uphill battle because it requires listing a bunch of hypotheticals.

When it comes to taxes, I simply don't care as long as someone can tell me how much I owe!

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#123

Post by BostonEnginerd »

mwint wrote: post #76
SilasX wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used FreeTaxUSA with a Wealthfront account that had stock trading. Wasn’t charged.

FreeTaxUSA is strangely under-mentioned on these threads. I’ve used it the last couple years with a complex-ish situation. Not a single complaint.

I’ve done my taxes with FreeTaxUSA for a few years as well. The webapp is simple, with no swooshing animations - but it gets the job done for 1/4 the price of TurboTax these days.

A few years ago I benchmarked the two together and they basically gave the same answers. They also don’t hold your past returns hostage.

I’ve been recommending them to everyone that I talk to about taxes.

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#124

Post by satronaut »

Spivak wrote: post #102
satronaut wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember there was a huge issue among the teachers unions that teachers wouldn't be able to deduct up to 500 dollars anymore for classroom expenses (I may have the number wrong). I was thinking, you teachers should be good at math and realize your deduction being doubled is way nicer than having that classroom supplies deduction. Also, why isn't the school paying for your expenses (but that's a whole separate conve…

You are thinking about this wrong. When you are in a situation where you take the standard dedication then you suddenly lose the benefit of doing any tax-deductible actions. So teachers across the board were immediately disincentivized from buying school supplies because it’s effectively not tax deductible anymore. I rant about this all the time with charitable donations. Any behavior the government wants to incentiv…

I think you're right on how the policy works, but look at the math. The standard deduction doubled, so as an equation New_deduction > old_deduction+school supplies

Teachers came out ahead

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#125

Post by satronaut »

DangitBobby wrote: post #115
Spivak wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are thinking about this wrong. When you are in a situation where you take the standard dedication then you suddenly lose the benefit of doing any tax-deductible actions. So teachers across the board were immediately disincentivized from buying school supplies because it’s effectively not tax deductible anymore. I rant about this all the time with charitable donations. Any behavior the government wants to incentiv…

Are you really suddenly not going to spend $500 on your students because now only $450 of it goes towards goods instead of the full $500? That doesn't really make any sense to me. Especially if the standard deduction grants you an additional $1k that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

Honestly though, we also need to ask why teachers are having to spend money out of pocket at all. We pay all these taxes, shouldn't the schools be able to afford photo copies?

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#126

Post by zardo »

satronaut wrote: post #124
Spivak wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are thinking about this wrong. When you are in a situation where you take the standard dedication then you suddenly lose the benefit of doing any tax-deductible actions. So teachers across the board were immediately disincentivized from buying school supplies because it’s effectively not tax deductible anymore. I rant about this all the time with charitable donations. Any behavior the government wants to incentiv…

I think you're right on how the policy works, but look at the math. The standard deduction doubled, so as an equation New_deduction > old_deduction+school supplies Teachers came out ahead

And they come out even more ahead if they stop buying classroom supplies.

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#127

Post by satronaut »

zardo wrote: post #126
satronaut wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right on how the policy works, but look at the math. The standard deduction doubled, so as an equation New_deduction > old_deduction+school supplies Teachers came out ahead

And they come out even more ahead if they stop buying classroom supplies.

no argument there. Would you agree with me that it'd be better if the schools provided all the materials that a teacher needs, instead of them paying out of pocket for supplies? I'll sometimes pay out of pocket for work supplies but I just get reimbursed so it's no big deal.

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#128

Post by rkk3 »

bpodgursky wrote: post #68
rkk3 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TurboTax is among the cheapest because it is free Free? Haha in what world?

It's free if your taxes are covered by: * W-2 income * Limited interest and dividend income reported on a 1099-INT or 1099-DIV * Claiming the standard deduction * Earned Income Tax Credit (EIC) * Child tax credits * Student Loan Interest deduction basically if you don't sell any assets, have employee stock compensation, or donate a ton of money you can file for free.

Pretty much everyone has to pay if you use turbo-tax, the "free" edition is not an IRS free file offering they don't advertise that one. There are very very very limited cases to not be hit by a "surprise" you need to upgrade and pay us from with money from your tax return. A staggering percentage of people who would have eligible to file for free under the IRS program end up paying because of the dark patterns, and the misleading marketing you for whatever reason are perpetuating.

2 years ago 37 Million people filed online who were eligible to use an IRS free file offering and only 6.8% did... [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xQQkzWhMOc&ab_channel=Netfl...

[2] https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-just-tricked-you...

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#129

Post by kibbleble »

Here's a Pocket article explaining it: https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the-irs-already-has-all-y...

> Consequently, of the more than 100 million taxpayers eligible for free help, 35% end up paying for tax preparation and 60% never even visit the free websites. Instead of 70% of Americans receiving free tax preparation, commercial companies whittled that percentage down to 3%.

BTW the US Treasury has been trying to get corporations to comply for years (since 2009). Here's a link to their report: https://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2020reports/2020...

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#130

Post by zardo »

satronaut wrote: post #127
zardo wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they come out even more ahead if they stop buying classroom supplies.

no argument there. Would you agree with me that it'd be better if the schools provided all the materials that a teacher needs, instead of them paying out of pocket for supplies? I'll sometimes pay out of pocket for work supplies but I just get reimbursed so it's no big deal.

I would if the source of the funds remained at the federal level.
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