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Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

vaghetti.dev

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Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#421

Post by Jensson »

snowwrestler wrote: post #109
irrational wrote: post #83

> The markets are doing their thing. Everyone sees tech workers making money and just generally having a good time and they think: “Hey that sounds like a good career choice”. It seems like you could replace tech workers with any other profession that sounds like a good career choice. Can literally everyone (or even the majority) learn to code? Do they want to learn to code? In my experience, the answer to both quest…

It’s not hard to make a living writing code. That’s why people with a high school education can do it. Obviously it’s not for everyone, but it’s also not reserved for a select few who have had a life-long passion for messing with computers. Look at the medical profession where there are tiers of expertise / earnings. Not everyone can be a neurosurgeon, obviously. But many people can make good livings. And the profess…

> It’s not hard to make a living writing code. That’s why people with a high school education can do it.

Its not hard finishing college, that's why people with a high school education can do it.

Having a high school education doesn't tell you how smart the person is. Maybe they would easily finish college if they tried?

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#422

Post by 7thaccount »

lelanthran wrote: post #258
LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. This is actually quite interesting as I was just talking to a few other professionals about this in a social setting. I was the only one in software development. I mentioned how stand-ups work briefl…

As an engineer, I can verify this. I just send my boss a few bullet points in an email on Friday afternoon describing what I've been up to. I couldn't do the stand-ups that the dev groups do. I frequently need to coordinate what I'm doing with dozens of other engineers, but I never need to be micromanaged about it. Is software really that different?

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#423

Post by Majestic121 »

Nextgrid wrote: post #294
jokoon wrote: post #247

I have depression issues, and have been coding for 10 years now. I don't know if I'm bad at programming, or if it's because I lack a degree, or because I have been chronically unemployed and lack experience, or because I'm too selective with the jobs I apply on (I can't bear php or js stuff like angular), or because I live in france or in the wrong city. I may have an atypical profile. Programming has not been very g…

To be fair when it comes to France, any job being in high demand generally wouldn't apply there. That country is the capital of unemployment from my experience, and I don't see it getting any better. But yes, lacking a degree is a big part of your problem. Fortunately, it's purely specific to France and you'll get better luck elsewhere in Europe. In my case I made my escape into the UK back when it was still possible…

That does not match my experience at all, devs are in a very high demand in France, and once you have some dev experience on your resume you start getting a lot of Linkedin spam.

As for unemployment rate in general, France is not amazing but it's far from being 'the capital of unemployment' (0.4% above the EU mean rate) : https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/unemployment-rate?...

Did you have anything specific in your experience that could explain why you did not succeed there ?

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#424

Post by RamblingCTO »

Dave3of5 wrote: post #282
lelanthran wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. This is actually quite interesting as I was just talking to a few other professionals about this in a social setting. I was the only one in software development. I mentioned how stand-ups work briefl…

The DSU shouldn't be for non-technical people. They literally should not speak at all during this daily meeting if they are even there. It's for Devs only to make sure they are not blocked and they are communicating what they are working on. In my last company the non-tech people weren't allowed and the DSU was only for engineering. It is not a daily status meeting! If it has turned into this then it should be scrapp…

Totally agree. Not even I join the daily as I don't want to mess with the scrum master's work or invite the team to ask questions as it would create longer meetings. At our startup, the devs meet with UI/UX, QA and the scrum master, shortly discuss what's happening and move on. Max time budget of 15 minutes. The rest really is micro-management.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#425

Post by Kye »

lytefm wrote: post #374
dom96 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't have software driven vehicles, we have software driven humans. Wow, this is a very prescient quote. I think we will hear this repeated often in the years to come.

There are two ways to look at it, though: One is to lament how previously specialized professions like taxi drivers become replaced by low-skilled laborers who just need to drive and use an app. The other way is to appreciate how technology augments what humans can do and be more productive. It's not like all accountants got fired when Excel started being a thing: It's that they got way more work done! There is no si…

Example relevant to what I do: the abundance of affordable software leading to people being able to make fully and professionally mixed and mastered albums in their bedroom didn't lead to all the studios closing. A mix engineer will always blow away anything I can do with the same tools as a generalist. What those tools did was enable people who previously couldn't afford to hire a studio to make music at a reasonable standard.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#426

Post by simonh »

lelanthran wrote: post #258
LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. This is actually quite interesting as I was just talking to a few other professionals about this in a social setting. I was the only one in software development. I mentioned how stand-ups work briefl…

Hmm. I think there are two characteristics of software development that make it a special case.

Firstly the error rate. We make 'mistakes' (bugs) all the time, how many other professions have a dedicated QA department dedicated day in, day out entirely to catching error. Yes there's audit, but most departments only even talk to them a few times a year.

Then there's the issue that the problem domain, and the design you're trying to implement, is often very poorly understood or at least documented and specified, even by the domain experts commissioning the project. This is the whole reason we have agile.

Between squashing bugs and constantly course correcting on the direction of development, I think some of the micromanaging makes sense. There's a heck of a lot of very unstable micro that needs managing. As has been mentioned already, the nearest analogy I can come up with is medicine, particularly for critical patients with poorly understood conditions. I think a great, if completely fictional example can be seen in the frequent discussions going on between the medics in 'House'. They're constantly putting their heads together and white-boarding cases, though in reality such discussions are I'm sure much rarer than the show makes out.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#427

Post by baq »

Apocryphon wrote: post #145
strken wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids learn how to read, write, and speak at least one language. Kids who learn two or more presumably turn into better translators. Potential lawyers have access to debate clubs and are trained in public speaking. I know one HVAC technician, and he's been working on cars and bikes with his dad since early childhood. Even doctors get taught biology. I pretty firmly believe nearly anyone can learn to contribute in any…

No, the controversial statement in question was the claim that "18 is awfully old to start learning something for the first time" wrt programming.

it absolutely isn't in the context.

you start to learn maths in kindergarten. you don't start to program computers there, usually. there are very good reasons not to do that (screen time!), but it will make learning to program easier later in life.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#428

Post by Kharvok »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

This heavily assumes that maximizing technical delivery at all times also maximizes value. That's just not the case outside of a component team or very large technology org structure.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#429

Post by Damogran6 »

I’m coming to the uncomforable conclusion that we’re ALL doing a dance. Programmers make a product, Managers manage the people, HR protects the company, Legal protects HR, the Shareholders leverage the Executive Staff to make their profit margins.

But in all of this, very little ACTUAL STUFF happens.

(I say this as a security guy, who’s line on the balance sheet is ALWAYS in the cost column.)

So much of what we do is bullshitgrinding that it doesn’t really pay to look at the whole thing too closely. So refactor for the 99th time, and review the 12th latest greatest web server or database connector or infrastructure as a service solution and try not to get too hung up on it…

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#430

Post by verisimi »

Damogran6 wrote: post #429

I’m coming to the uncomforable conclusion that we’re ALL doing a dance. Programmers make a product, Managers manage the people, HR protects the company, Legal protects HR, the Shareholders leverage the Executive Staff to make their profit margins. But in all of this, very little ACTUAL STUFF happens. (I say this as a security guy, who’s line on the balance sheet is ALWAYS in the cost column.) So much of what we do is…

https://www.strike.coop/bullshit-jobs/
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