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Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

vaghetti.dev

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Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#411

Post by tomohawk »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

Just because you're standing up, and it's daily, doesn't mean your having a standup. You may just be part of a cargo cult.

A standup is a communication meeting, where only those actually doing the work should be communicating. Other people should listen in and ask questions afterwards. There are plenty of other opportunities for project managers and others to have an impact. Impeding the team's communication, even if well meaning, is counterproductive.

But, like most things, those who have power will always find a way to subvert available mechanisms to enhance their power, even when it costs more, takes longer, and pisses people off.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#412

Post by have_faith »

dystroy wrote: post #233
hooby wrote: post #212

Programmers are increasingly needed for *everything*. I mean, we've entered an age, where a farmer can't milk their cows, if the software of the milking robot has a hitch - can't plow their fields, when the gps-software that drives the tractor isn't working. Apart from that, programming is becoming every other job - as far as domain knowledge is concerned. I've personally experienced (multiple times!) professional ac…

For taxi drivers, the most important change was already done and it took decades: it wasn't replacing them with self driving vehicles. It was replacing very competent drivers having a perfect knowledge of the town and of the optimal paths with drivers with absolutely no competence needed. We don't have software driven vehicles, we have software driven humans.

And with their knowledge moat they got lazy and built an industry where a lot of people dreaded getting taxis because of meters, getting ripped off, lack of accountability, etc.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#413

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

woldenron wrote: post #407
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When I hear "programmers are in high demand", I don't see it applying to me. This is a very nuanced statement and depends highly on region. When you hear "programmers are in high demand" it actually means "senior/experienced programmers in the company's stack who can quickly solve the issues piling up on their desk, are in high demand". Juniors or devs with near zero experience in that particular stack are getting r…

Which countries you have in mind saying Eastern Europe?

Romania, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Bulgaria, basically most former eastern bloc countries that are also EU members.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#414

Post by lewisjoe »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

That is why working under a non-technical manager is a strong deal-breaker for me. Fortunately at Zoho where I work, the management culture is rooted with an engineering background. Even the CEO himself, works on hard problems like compilers and dev-friendly formal verification.

I don't think I'll survive a single sprint under a non-technical decision maker.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#415

Post by baq »

zerr wrote: post #409
Dave3of5 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DSU shouldn't be for non-technical people. They literally should not speak at all during this daily meeting if they are even there. It's for Devs only to make sure they are not blocked and they are communicating what they are working on. In my last company the non-tech people weren't allowed and the DSU was only for engineering. It is not a daily status meeting! If it has turned into this then it should be scrapp…

It is always a status meeting, even if it is advocated as not being so.

it's only a status meeting for management if management insists on being there.

kick them out.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#417

Post by JackMorgan »

lm28469 wrote: post #337
LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

> non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. If these people weren't there half of the programmer population would be stuck in and endless refactoring loop. Programmers are tools, tools need people to use them

I don't care for the dehumanization in this comment.

Sounds like the thinking that calls employees "resources" and considers them fungible cogs.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#418

Post by maxwell »

schwartzworld wrote: post #386
dunefox wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because some professions have it worse developers need to have it worse as well? What a garbage point.

Huh? I was responding to someone saying that stand-ups === being managed "no better than a burger flipper". I don't agree with that point, especially since food service has the most toxic management of any industry.

What restaurant(s) have you worked for or are you citing?

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#419

Post by maxwell »

schwartzworld wrote: post #385
hkt wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wage theft is endemic in programming. Think of all those colleagues who have worked late on a deadline because somebody pressured them into it. They're reducing their own effective hourly rate and contributing to a long hours culture because of the daily ritual of humiliation at standup. It is very different to the restaurant analogy but wage theft and humiliation are still baked in for many of us.

When you accept a salaried position, you understand that there are going to be weeks your "effective hourly" fluctuates. Some weeks I have lots of work. Some I don't. I have sympathy but that's not wage theft. Actual wage theft is very common in food service. As in, you earn the money and someone else takes it.

I've worked unpaid overtime at every tech job I've had. On the flip side, I never had any wage issues in 5 years in food service, other than that the pay isn't livable.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#420

Post by Dave3of5 »

nikau wrote: post #375
Dave3of5 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Send him this link: https://www.scrum.org/resources/what-is-a-daily-scrum From the horses mouth: "The Daily Scrum is Not a Status Meeting" Or maybe see about getting him certified.

But it always is. They go around the room and everyone has to say something and it ends up being a status update.

To be honest I would just throw SCRUM into the trash if I could I think it's garbage but following some not quite SCRUM method which is what most companies do is actually insane.

The whole process becomes a micromanagers wet dream.

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