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Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

vaghetti.dev

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Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#311

Post by dustinmoris »

herodoturtle wrote: post #304
cudgy wrote: post #298

Standups with the entire team of say 5 or more people are usually a waste of time for most of the attendees. Most attendees are simply listening to updates and questions between the lead and the other team members. Sure, sometimes an unrelated developer might have insight but it is rare and can cause rabbit hole conversations that waste other team member’s time. Would prefer a structure where an experienced developer…

I disagree with this, but only under certain conditions. The standup is meant to be a quick meeting, 10 minutes tops. It's not there for deep advice between lead and each team member. Instead it's there to get everyone on the same page. The deep one-on-one meetings still happen separately - when needed. And as you say, the added benefit of daily standups is that sometimes a team member has great insight into someone…

> Instead it's there to get everyone on the same page.

How do you get everyone on the same page if you cannot ask questions?

This whole standup theatre is complete bullshit. It's true it's a waste of time. You say it's only meant to be a quick "status update" 10 minute meeting. What is the point of that if then asking questions is not allowed? If it is allowed then it's true though that for the majority of listeners it becomes a time sink.

The best performing teams I've worked on had no standups. They talked to each other when there was something to talk about and they only talked to the folks who were genuinely interested in the conversation.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#312

Post by te_chris »

lelanthran wrote: post #258
LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. This is actually quite interesting as I was just talking to a few other professionals about this in a social setting. I was the only one in software development. I mentioned how stand-ups work briefl…

Have you seen how lawyers, accountants etc actually work though? It's a shit show, there's little to no project management and stress everywhere. Talk to any lawyer under 40 about their work practices and your mouth will drop. There's no autonomy, just endless pressure, confusing directions and last minute reactivity.

Trello and a standup among teams would immeasurably improve things.

(Source: I know a bunch of big firm lawyers - and ex lawyers who said "Fuck this" and quit)

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#313

Post by austincheney »

jokoon wrote: post #247

I have depression issues, and have been coding for 10 years now. I don't know if I'm bad at programming, or if it's because I lack a degree, or because I have been chronically unemployed and lack experience, or because I'm too selective with the jobs I apply on (I can't bear php or js stuff like angular), or because I live in france or in the wrong city. I may have an atypical profile. Programming has not been very g…

> When I hear "programmers are in high demand", I don't see it applying to me.

Because it probably doesn’t apply to you. It’s not that programmers are in high demand but that hiring programmers is in high demand, which is massively different. It’s the difference between people who solve problems as compared to people who reproduce the same problems to solve.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#314

Post by bruce343434 »

nivenkos wrote: post #288
bruce343434 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

boohoo, you only earn 70-80k EUR bruto. And you get to live in Europe as well?? You realize the average bruto salary in (west) Europe is around 20-30K EUR? Even lower in east Europe? You are one of the luckiest, most privileged people alive. Yes, there's always a bigger fish/higher salary. But christ, get some perspective.

I pay 40% income tax (56% marginal), 25% sales tax, 35% electricity tax. It means 80k doesn't go as far as it'd seem, especially with increasing interest rates. Considering Americans are on 200k+, it just doesn't compare.

I doubt it to be honest. I think that that's just the bragging, survivor biased subset of the top enclave of salaries you can get in crazy expensive places like SF, NY, CA. And you still have taxes there, and (health) insurance costs a lot more.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#315

Post by iSnow »

Dave3of5 wrote: post #282
lelanthran wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. This is actually quite interesting as I was just talking to a few other professionals about this in a social setting. I was the only one in software development. I mentioned how stand-ups work briefl…

The DSU shouldn't be for non-technical people. They literally should not speak at all during this daily meeting if they are even there. It's for Devs only to make sure they are not blocked and they are communicating what they are working on. In my last company the non-tech people weren't allowed and the DSU was only for engineering. It is not a daily status meeting! If it has turned into this then it should be scrapp…

I wish I could get this across to my PMs, bosses and other non-technical stake-holders. Current PM is an nice guy but first of all, he absolutely loves to talk and second, he believes the "daily status meeting" format is what Scrum is all about.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#316

Post by pdimitar »

schwartzworld wrote: post #286
lelanthran wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. This is actually quite interesting as I was just talking to a few other professionals about this in a social setting. I was the only one in software development. I mentioned how stand-ups work briefl…

> Every single one of them (all professionals, like I said) were adamant that they would leave any position that managed them no better than a burger-flipper. Such entitled garbage. Restaurants manage people much more tightly, and often with very abusive practices and wage theft added in. Stand-up is nothing compared to having an underpaid alcoholic yell at you because you leaned against the wall 2/3 of the way throu…

So the programmers are on the level of restaurant workers? Not sure what your argument is.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#317

Post by gregoriol »

adriancr wrote: post #255
gregoriol wrote: post #254

Programmers will end like most factory workers: there is no reason most of the current programming can't be automated at some point.

Programming is mostly r&d and i dont hear people trying to automate researchers, rather enhance what they can do. I'd argue if a programming position can be automated, that position wasn't needed in the first place and someone can make better infrastructure that doesnt require it in the first place. But to build that infrastructure you do need competent programmers, and if you dont a competitor will, and eventually r…

That's why I'm saying "most of current programming", thinking tasks like doing React or Wordpress stuff

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#318

Post by pdimitar »

ggm wrote: post #307
lelanthran wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doctors do something not far removed. It's really important to them to caucus on case management. Maybe, but it is removed. From my recollection, doctors don't standup each day to report on what they have or have not done and their individual progress, they report on purely on problematic patients that could do with expertise from a different expert, and it's not a daily progress report. If software development fol…

I'm not entirely sure this is more than a matter of degree. I liked most of your point but I think you devalue aspects of this mode of work discussion. It's important to discuss work and holding yourself to account in a shared endeavour is not of itself bad. I have little doubt it's also used as passive aggressive bullying sometimes.

That's the problem. Anecdotally, for many programmers I spoke with over a 20 years of career, it's not "can be used as passive aggressive bullying sometimes"; it's "almost always". :(

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#319

Post by olalonde »

I remember reading almost the exact same post around 15 years ago. Back then, the boogyman was outsourcing to India rather than code bootcamps. I am not saying programmer salaries will never go down but my feeling is that demand will keep outpacing supply for a while. Software is eating the world after all.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#320

Post by bob1029 »

pdimitar wrote: post #280
edanm wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm not defending every single workplace here. Obviously some developers aren't treated well, and in those cases, they should find another job. I was commenting on the fairly blanket statement made. But the way the conversation should go isn't the developer deciding when refactoring should happen. It's the developer giving an analysis of the cost and benefit of a refactoring (it will take X time, but will save…

> It's the developer giving an analysis of the cost and benefit of a refactoring (it will take X time, but will save Y work in the future). And the manager factoring that into all the other circumstances, and deciding whether it's worth the current cost. This has been the ideal theory for decades and I really wish people finally stopped to think for two minutes, look around, read some history and finally understand t…

I think the key point for me is that once you control for all common human flaws, the developer is still far better suited to make an executive decision regarding a technology concern than anyone else on the team.

I recently made the mistake of deferring to the anxieties and fears of non-developers for so long that I almost forgot how we got to where we are today or what my true capabilities are.

You know exactly what those assholes are thinking when you say the word "refactor" or "iterate". It starts to become a psychological horror experience if you let it get out of control for too long.

Now don't get me wrong. At the end of the day I love and care for our customer too. I just don't let their minute-by-minute feature request stream live rent free in my head the same way the rest of the team does.

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