Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

vaghetti.dev

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 611 posts

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#291

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

durnygbur wrote: post #287
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Actively applying and interviewing, still receiving absurd requests to resolve various quizzes, teasers, and assignments. Potential salaries top at miserable 70-80k EUR in countries where monthly salary deductions reach 40%. Let me guess, France/Austria/Belgium?

Germany, Denmark, and even Netherlands after the initial 5 years discount... list me one country where it doesn't apply...

Netherlands to a degree has at least some big tech willing to pay six figures and up, while that's almost not the case in places like Austria and Belgium while still having insane taxes.

>list me one country where it doesn't apply

If you can move to Romania and freelance, you can pay as little as 1% tax. And if you freelance for six figure US gigs you've basically hit the jackpot.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#292

Post by Dave3of5 »

edanm wrote: post #229
LAC-Tech wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're definitely better at non-developers at software development. Yet we literally have outside people dictating to us when they think it's appropriate for refactoring to happen. Or when it's time to update a dependency. This is a lot different from than "no on besides them can have any insight on timelines, or budget, on which features are or aren't important.". I definitely value the input of other profess…

Again, I'm not defending every single workplace here. Obviously some developers aren't treated well, and in those cases, they should find another job. I was commenting on the fairly blanket statement made. But the way the conversation should go isn't the developer deciding when refactoring should happen. It's the developer giving an analysis of the cost and benefit of a refactoring (it will take X time, but will save…

For non-tech people the code should be a black box they shouldn't know the internal details.

In terms of refactoring there is no way to give a Cost Benefit analysis as that's too subjective. This should be a maintenance cost that's factored into the project at a high level. So you would say there a X days per year (normally about 20%) of the working days of the year spent on maintenance. Company I'm at has this and if you're doing this type of work then you have timecodes to book your time against.

That includes refactoring, re-architecture, tech debt, updating deps ...etc. PM's can't override this for their own project i.e. they have to allow for 20% off project activities in there Project Plan. Devs shouldn't spend more that 20% of their time doing these activities over the FY.

Example here would be in the UK we have something called a MOT which you have to legally get it's like a minimal maintenance you have to get on your car. Most people spend a little more though than the minimum.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#293

Post by rdevsrex »

It ends with ecological and societal collapse. While the party lasts tech will increase. But eventually in the next 20-50 years tech will mean very little given we don't have the resources to continue growth exponentially.

In the interim, programming is a great way to make money, but at some point it's going to lose its prominence.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#294

Post by Nextgrid »

jokoon wrote: post #247

I have depression issues, and have been coding for 10 years now. I don't know if I'm bad at programming, or if it's because I lack a degree, or because I have been chronically unemployed and lack experience, or because I'm too selective with the jobs I apply on (I can't bear php or js stuff like angular), or because I live in france or in the wrong city. I may have an atypical profile. Programming has not been very g…

To be fair when it comes to France, any job being in high demand generally wouldn't apply there. That country is the capital of unemployment from my experience, and I don't see it getting any better.

But yes, lacking a degree is a big part of your problem. Fortunately, it's purely specific to France and you'll get better luck elsewhere in Europe. In my case I made my escape into the UK back when it was still possible.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#295

Post by durnygbur »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #291
durnygbur wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany, Denmark, and even Netherlands after the initial 5 years discount... list me one country where it doesn't apply...

Netherlands to a degree has at least some big tech willing to pay six figures and up, while that's almost not the case in places like Austria and Belgium while still having insane taxes. >list me one country where it doesn't apply If you can move to Romania and freelance, you can pay as little as 1% tax. And if you freelance for six figure US gigs you've basically hit the jackpot.

In post-Communist countries you have social services, healthcare, and infrastructure at the level worse than in US. You're alone with your cash and every doctor, agent, and clerk looks to screw you over. It's attractive only for natives with family locally, or maybe for someone who is fluent in the native language. No salary would convince me to relocate alone to Romania.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#296

Post by dgb23 »

irrational wrote: post #83

> The markets are doing their thing. Everyone sees tech workers making money and just generally having a good time and they think: “Hey that sounds like a good career choice”. It seems like you could replace tech workers with any other profession that sounds like a good career choice. Can literally everyone (or even the majority) learn to code? Do they want to learn to code? In my experience, the answer to both quest…

In my opinion there is a huge market for teaching programming literacy. Learning to code as a means to an end that isn’t programming itself. Plenty of smart people who benefit from grounded computational thinking and communication that don’t necessarily need the nitty gritty detailed skills. Think designers, managers, sales etc.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#297

Post by bryanrasmussen »

rdevsrex wrote: post #293

It ends with ecological and societal collapse. While the party lasts tech will increase. But eventually in the next 20-50 years tech will mean very little given we don't have the resources to continue growth exponentially. In the interim, programming is a great way to make money, but at some point it's going to lose its prominence.

so make your primary job programmer, but maybe develop fallbacks in carpentry and subsistence farming.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#298

Post by cudgy »

Standups with the entire team of say 5 or more people are usually a waste of time for most of the attendees. Most attendees are simply listening to updates and questions between the lead and the other team members. Sure, sometimes an unrelated developer might have insight but it is rare and can cause rabbit hole conversations that waste other team member’s time.

Would prefer a structure where an experienced developer (preferably in area of work) meets one on one for 10-15 mins max with each team member, provides advice or refers the team member to resources to aid if needed.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#299

Post by usrbinbash »

rdevsrex wrote: post #293

It ends with ecological and societal collapse. While the party lasts tech will increase. But eventually in the next 20-50 years tech will mean very little given we don't have the resources to continue growth exponentially. In the interim, programming is a great way to make money, but at some point it's going to lose its prominence.

How do you figure that tech will mean very little?

What cannot continue is economic growth, for the simple reasons that the planets (and its biospheres) resources are finite.

What will continue however, is technological growth, as in technology will grow ever more complex, and solve more difficult tasks. Techn development is not inherently tied to economic growth.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#300

Post by pirate787 »

cudgy wrote: post #290
mibollma wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the developer giving an analysis of the cost and benefit of a refactoring (it will take X time, but will save Y work in the future). And the manager factoring that into all the other circumstances, and deciding whether it's worth the current cost. I don't think either devlopers or managers can estimate future savings in most cases, but I still think it's necessary to refactor just to not drown in complexity an…

Why 20%? Just curious how you arrived at that percentage.

Pareto optimal
Post reply on HN