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Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

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Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#171

Post by quambene »

bentcorner wrote: post #125
hilbert42 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't have the time or energy to block JavaScript and/or manually inspect each domain's requests to figure out if they use server-side tracking or not." By default, I don't run JavaScript. I don't see blocking JS as a problem - in fact, it's a blessing as the web is blinding fast without it - and also most of the ads just simply disappear if JS is not running. On occasions when I need JS (only about 3-5% of sites)…

I used to run NoScript then at some point (maybe switched browsers?) I stopped using it. You've persuaded me to re-enable it. Also - Firefox on mobile supports NoScript!

Concerning noscript, is this [1] still a thing?

[1] NoScript is harmful and promotes malware - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12624000

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#172

Post by Animats »

olliej wrote: post #92
Animats wrote: post #86

Wait, Google wants to proxy the entire internet through Google servers? Just so ad tracking will work? This lets Google spy on the entire session in both directions, right?

And also makes it harder for any alternative - you can’t use two different systems to proxy the same content at the same time, and you can’t expect one company to not “protect user privacy” by filtering competitors. Honestly the only reason this is even an option for google is because a bunch of web admins said “I want to know who is browsing my site, and who cares if that lets google spy on every person who uses my…

This was modded down, but commented on favorably. Am I wrong about this giving Google a backdoor into every web site that uses it?

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#173

Post by eru »

dsr_ wrote: post #116
gigel82 wrote: post #25

God damn... this is it, this is the end-game. There's no way to fight this unless you customize and maintain blocking scripts for each individual website. Yes, websites could always have done this, but the REST (CDN-bypassing) requests' cost and the manual maintenance for the telemetry endpoints and storage was an impediment that Google just gives them a drop-in solution for :( I think Google is happy to eat some of…

There's no way to fight this unless ... you pass legislation against it or comparable technologies, preferably at a policy level.

You can fight against it by refusing to use these websites?

If you can't do this, perhaps because a big _majority_ of users don't care enough to support this kind of ecosystem shift, what makes you think a majority of voters would support this? (And if not, why would you want to force your view on them?)

It's like legislating that people should only listen to Good Music and eat Healthy Food, as defined by some people who know better than the unwashed masses?

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#174

Post by Nursie »

akkartik wrote: post #120
Nursie wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“DNT” is a bad joke, always was, just so you know. It just adds a header to your requests asking nicely not to be tracked. If anything it probably acts as a datapoint on fingerprinting and actually helps to track you.

It provides a modicum of social and legal enforcement. A website with any sort of brand risks legal and PR costs if they violate DNT. I'm happy for them to take that risk. Though I see now that the whole thing has fallen through since around 2019: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Not_Track . Oh well. Going back to my original comment, if there's a better way to read say the NYTimes without being tracked by the NYTime…

Legal risks? I'm unaware that it's ever been enforceable anywhere, and I don't think there's ever been enough awareness of its existence to cause reputational damage.

Personally I think the whole thing fell through the moment it was conceived in 2009. We're going to ask nicely that people who are tracking us, who know that we don't want to be tracked anyway, kindly refrain? The whole idea was laughable.

Its advocates got annoyed when Microsoft enabled it by default on a version of IE several years ago, as then it wouldn't be perceived as a reliable indicator of intent. This really just exposed the problem with the whole thing, that it was going to be hidden away in settings where few people would go, and rely on the good will of effectively known-bad actors to respect it, and just maybe they would respect it if we keep it more-or-less a secret that only techy people bother with.

(Sorry, this rant is not aimed at you, it's just a bit of a pet hate)

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#175

Post by Teever »

Firmwarrior wrote: post #150
Teever wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do what? All of the things that these companies do to monitor and track as much of the population as they can. What I'm saying is it's funny because it's one of those things that's apparently legal to do in the aggregate but not individually? Imagine if someone started up a business to track Google employees.

Man, that's a great idea Hire a bunch of PIs to follow and publicly report on all the movements and actions of every exec you can manage at Google, Facebook, and smaller/shadier ad companies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#176

Post by eru »

strogonoff wrote: post #91
gernb wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do what? Record who came in and out of your house?

Imagine if Google offered a retail solution advertised as “record who came in and out of your house”. They would offer a CCTV for free and run centralized face recognition on everybody visiting. They’d give you a bit of stats, but truly they would aggregate data on where people go and build shadow profiles (supposedly to facilitate ad targeting). And imagine 90% of households were using it.

Would be a bit creepy sure. But who am I to judge what other people install in their houses? I don't have to go and visit them, if I don't like it.

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#177

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

anxrn wrote: post #56
gigel82 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Highly doubtful the method would continue to be called "gtag"; any js bundling / minification would replace that with a randomly generated string, and it's just as easy to randomize the server-side api endpoint url, making this virtually impossible to block (maybe a pattern analysis on the data being transmitted, but that can also be encrypted with random algorithms and keys, beyond recognition).

Yes, it can surely be obfuscated, but ultimately there will be a client-side function with near-identical functionality prevalent all over the web. It's harder, but seems possible to build an extension to identify this function.

You can use CTPH algorithms to fingerprint the function, so you'd need an extension that fingerprints each function before the browser runs it. Or you could man-in-the-middle yourself and patch the malicious code before it gets to your browser.

Better still would be to fingerprint the syntax tree, so obfuscators need to change more than just the names of things (Unison does this, Javascript would probably be less friendly).

I'd love an app where I could crowd-fund the inevitable game of cat/mouse that would ensue. Like maybe I put $5 in at the beginning of each month and as I browse I curate a list of sites that I'd like tampered with. Better developers than I could then publish patches for the malicious functions, which are applied as I browse. At the end of the month, my $5 gets distributed to the people who fixed the parts of the web that I browsed that month.

I'm working on a tool that facilitates collaboration on CTPH-identified blobs of data, but it's more of a `curl shadysite.com | mytool` kind of thing. I'm not sure what would go into integrating it into a browser.

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#178

Post by GekkePrutser »

lewantmontreal wrote: post #113
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't browsers shifting to a per-domain cookie jar? While you can never prevent one specific site from tracking you, this still doesn't (directly) allow your activity on Site A to be linked to activity on Site B, does it? Of course, fingerprinting combined with IP addresses will ultimately allow something that comes very close to it, so the current state (a few hundred trackers per website, all ending up harmlessly…

This is what I’m interested in. Article itself did not mention cross site tracking. Every website having their own tracking subdomain makes third party cookies not work cross site even without browser changes.

They can still cross-track based on IP or any other fingerprint worthy information. I expect this is exactly what they're doing. Doing this all on a central service makes this process much easier unfortunately...

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#179

Post by Teever »

judge2020 wrote: post #142
strogonoff wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if Google offered a retail solution advertised as “record who came in and out of your house”. They would offer a CCTV for free and run centralized face recognition on everybody visiting. They’d give you a bit of stats, but truly they would aggregate data on where people go and build shadow profiles (supposedly to facilitate ad targeting). And imagine 90% of households were using it.

So this is only a problem if the person thinking of visiting their neighbors' or friends' house has an issue with it. Why can't I install such a system if I want to? Why does it matter that 90% of households use this system? In fact, because 90% of households use this system, doesn't that mean society at large agrees that this is an OK thing to have? We all opt for wearing clothes only because society at large has ag…

> because 90% of households use this system, doesn't that mean society at large agrees that this is an OK thing to have?

And if 90% of households have slaves doesn't that mean that society at large agrees that this is an OK thing to have?

Re: Google Tag Manager, the new anti-adblock weapon (2020)

#180

Post by GekkePrutser »

altairprime wrote: post #170
gigel82 wrote: post #25

God damn... this is it, this is the end-game. There's no way to fight this unless you customize and maintain blocking scripts for each individual website. Yes, websites could always have done this, but the REST (CDN-bypassing) requests' cost and the manual maintenance for the telemetry endpoints and storage was an impediment that Google just gives them a drop-in solution for :( I think Google is happy to eat some of…

How much would you pay per month for custom-per-site tracking blocking as described here?

5-10 bucks. Any higher and I'll be looking at other options like not using the web so much.
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