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Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

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Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#21

Post by TillE »

lostcolony wrote: post #16
ytdytvhxgydvhh wrote: post #11

Why would I be mad at Intuit? They’re an amoral profit-seeking company seeking profit. I’m furious at the IRS and Congress for not providing me with a free, simple federal tax filing solution. I know there are free file programs for certain income brackets or tax situations, but it’s outrageous that the IRS has colluded with Intuit (and other paid tax preparers) by strongly recommending that taxpayers file electronic…

First, you can still e-file for free. You just don't get any guidance on filling out the forms. Second, the reason it's this way...is because of the excessive lobbying to keep it this way, of which Intuit is one of the largest players. In fact, there is no reason for the IRS not to just tell you "here is what we think you owe/should be refunded", and for you to say "Nope, here's why (and e-file relevant forms)", or "…

> First, you can still e-file for free.

Only for certain definitions of "you". All the available offers have various restrictions.

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#22

Post by dec0dedab0de »

reincarnate0x14 wrote: post #2

They are frustrated, they're simply not aware that Intuit and other players have exercised regulatory capture to make it so awful and blame "the government" since the IRS is the face of it. Other modernized nations have nothing like this insanity, often sending people yearly reports they can accept (since for most cases they are accurate) or send in amendments. This is far from the only issue that business interests…

sending people yearly reports they can accept (since for most cases they are accurate) or send in amendments.

This would be perfect. It doesn't make any sense that my employer, banks, etc has to send everything in, but then I do to.

I wish someone would set up a class action lawsuit against the IRS on behalf of everyone with ADHD, claiming that forcing everyone to do tedious paperwork is a violation of the ADA.

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#23

Post by [deleted] »

reincarnate0x14 wrote: post #2

They are frustrated, they're simply not aware that Intuit and other players have exercised regulatory capture to make it so awful and blame "the government" since the IRS is the face of it. Other modernized nations have nothing like this insanity, often sending people yearly reports they can accept (since for most cases they are accurate) or send in amendments. This is far from the only issue that business interests…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#24

Post by daemoens »

ytdytvhxgydvhh wrote: post #11

Why would I be mad at Intuit? They’re an amoral profit-seeking company seeking profit. I’m furious at the IRS and Congress for not providing me with a free, simple federal tax filing solution. I know there are free file programs for certain income brackets or tax situations, but it’s outrageous that the IRS has colluded with Intuit (and other paid tax preparers) by strongly recommending that taxpayers file electronic…

The IRS didn't collude, congress did. They're the ones who cutting their budget, year after year.

>Intuit revved its new lobbying machine. Even before the OMB report was publicly released, a group of Republican lawmakers, led by TurboTax’s hometown congressman, wrote to the agency arguing that there was no reason for the government to “compete” with the “well-established” private tax prep companies. Intuit’s lobbyists also went above the OMB and pressed their case directly to the White House, Forman recalled.

>At the IRS, “all hell broke loose,” remembered Terry Lutes, who was then the head of electronic filing at the agency. Intuit’s clout on the Hill meant that lawmakers were soon accusing the IRS of making “secret plans to undercut the industry,” Lutes said. The agency ran the risk of seeing its funding cut if it were to pursue the Bush plan.

>The IRS commissioner at the time, Charles Rossotti, also opposed the idea. The IRS’ customer service staff, already too thin to respond adequately to Americans’ questions about the tax code, would have to grow substantially to handle millions of software queries. Congress “will never give you sufficient funding,” Rossotti told ProPublica.

https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f...

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#25

Post by teraflop »

TillE wrote: post #21
lostcolony wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, you can still e-file for free. You just don't get any guidance on filling out the forms. Second, the reason it's this way...is because of the excessive lobbying to keep it this way, of which Intuit is one of the largest players. In fact, there is no reason for the IRS not to just tell you "here is what we think you owe/should be refunded", and for you to say "Nope, here's why (and e-file relevant forms)", or "…

> First, you can still e-file for free. Only for certain definitions of "you". All the available offers have various restrictions.

AFAIK there are no restrictions on who can use the IRS's Free Fillable Forms, though there are a few fairly obscure forms it doesn't support.

https://www.irs.gov/e-file-providers/free-file-fillable-form...

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#26

Post by oneplane »

pirate787 wrote: post #20

Actually the worst dark pattern is implemented by the IRS. No doubt lobbying keeps it this way. The process for online filing with the IRS is a hot mess, and extremely difficult to navigate. For example, it is impossible for me to file 1099-NEC for my contractors without first obtaining a special ID delivered via mail in 45 days. I can't print and mail from the IRS website either -- I have to first request the form.…

Isn't that because the creators of TubroTax had a lawsuit against the government because the IRS modernising their software-based filing would cut into their commercial efforts?

Ah yes:

https://www.reuters.com/article/legal-us-otc-intuit-idUSKBN2...

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/07/720941665/la-city-attorney-su...

It was a bit of a different construction, but the premise of "we want to make money and prevent a government service from being accessible using software made by the government".

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#27

Post by kwertyoowiyop »

danielfoster wrote: post #8

People only file their taxes once a year and just want to move on. Industries with infrequent transactions are more prone to abuse like this.

It isn’t a coincidence that Tax Day (April 15) is about as far away from Election Day (November 6) as it’s possible to be!

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#29

Post by kwertyoowiyop »

cebert wrote: post #17
dsjoerg wrote: post #14

"with little complaint from consumers" -- how do you know there isn't a great deal of complaint? "I don’t understand why consumers are not more frustrated." -- they are extremely frustrated, why do you think they're not frustrated?

I don’t see a consumer movement urging legislators to make reforms on this issue. I don’t see a great deal of resentment on social media. If we don’t collectively take action, this situation will never improve.

When was the last time someone in a televised “town hall” asked a candidate about simplifying tax filing? Honest question — I really can’t ever recall it.

Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?

#30

Post by Darmody »

reincarnate0x14 wrote: post #2

They are frustrated, they're simply not aware that Intuit and other players have exercised regulatory capture to make it so awful and blame "the government" since the IRS is the face of it. Other modernized nations have nothing like this insanity, often sending people yearly reports they can accept (since for most cases they are accurate) or send in amendments. This is far from the only issue that business interests…

The government here (Spain) knows the money I make just as any government knows about its citizens.

When I'm to do my taxes, I get an auto generated draft and the only thing I have to do is click the "Accept" button.

You only have to fill your taxes manually if you're self employed or have some sort of earnings other than your job, in which case, the company that does you accounting, does the taxes for you too in 15 min.

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