Why would I be mad at Intuit? They’re an amoral profit-seeking company seeking profit. I’m furious at the IRS and Congress for not providing me with a free, simple federal tax filing solution. I know there are free file programs for certain income brackets or tax situations, but it’s outrageous that the IRS has colluded with Intuit (and other paid tax preparers) by strongly recommending that taxpayers file electronically but then not provide a free solution across the board.
Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?
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Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?
#12Why would I be mad at Intuit? They’re an amoral profit-seeking company seeking profit. I’m furious at the IRS and Congress for not providing me with a free, simple federal tax filing solution. I know there are free file programs for certain income brackets or tax situations, but it’s outrageous that the IRS has colluded with Intuit (and other paid tax preparers) by strongly recommending that taxpayers file electronic…
^ This. It's so obnoxious that the _only way_ to e-file is to go through one of these companies, unless your income falls below a certain (not-very-generous) threshold.
Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?
#13I recently had Intuit delete all my personal data, across all their products. Doing this was exhausting. Their online process for deleting an account did not work. Contacting customer support resulted in unhelpful back and forth. Finally, I gave up and filed a complaint with the CA Attorney General. Within two weeks, I got a call from someone at Intuit who quickly resolved the issue and promised to delete all my Intuit-owned accounts (it seems to have worked).
I tell the story because I think it illustrates a lot of reasons companies can get away with bad behavior:
1. Only a subset of consumers recognize the bad behavior and know who to contact.
2. Most consumers are not motivated to complain. In the above story, most people would probably stop when the Intuit website doesn't work (I usually give up too). There is a free-rider problem. My complaint could benefit lots of people if a company changes its behavior, but I alone incur the cost of complaining.
3. When a consumer successfully complains, companies can sometimes quietly make the problem go away for the one consumer and avoid regulatory action. Intuit called me, resolved the issue only for me, and we both move on. With the issue resolved, the regulator has less reason to continue investigating.
4. Even when regulators get enough complaints and go after bad behavior, they are up against powerful attorneys and lobbyists. And even if the regulators win, the company probably has lots of substitute ways of achieving the same goals that weren't contemplated or prohibited by the settlement/law/etc.
Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?
#14"with little complaint from consumers" -- how do you know there isn't a great deal of complaint?
"I don’t understand why consumers are not more frustrated." -- they are extremely frustrated, why do you think they're not frustrated?
Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?
#15The entire us tax system is a legislative dark pattern that funnels people into accounting outfits like TurboTax.
Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?
#16Why would I be mad at Intuit? They’re an amoral profit-seeking company seeking profit. I’m furious at the IRS and Congress for not providing me with a free, simple federal tax filing solution. I know there are free file programs for certain income brackets or tax situations, but it’s outrageous that the IRS has colluded with Intuit (and other paid tax preparers) by strongly recommending that taxpayers file electronic…
First, you can still e-file for free. You just don't get any guidance on filling out the forms.
Second, the reason it's this way...is because of the excessive lobbying to keep it this way, of which Intuit is one of the largest players. In fact, there is no reason for the IRS not to just tell you "here is what we think you owe/should be refunded", and for you to say "Nope, here's why (and e-file relevant forms)", or "Yep, that's correct", except that lobbying has prevented it (well, and the last time it came up one of the two political parties was against it ostensibly because 'big government')
Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?
#17"with little complaint from consumers" -- how do you know there isn't a great deal of complaint? "I don’t understand why consumers are not more frustrated." -- they are extremely frustrated, why do you think they're not frustrated?
I don’t see a consumer movement urging legislators to make reforms on this issue. I don’t see a great deal of resentment on social media. If we don’t collectively take action, this situation will never improve.
Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?
#18They are frustrated, they're simply not aware that Intuit and other players have exercised regulatory capture to make it so awful and blame "the government" since the IRS is the face of it. Other modernized nations have nothing like this insanity, often sending people yearly reports they can accept (since for most cases they are accurate) or send in amendments. This is far from the only issue that business interests…
That’s my frustration. Tax filing should be a free service of the IRS for everyone. The process could be much better too. The IRS already has my W2s, 1099s, etc. There’s no reason I need to resupply what they already know.
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Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?
#19Aside from the "you only use it once a year" answer that's already been mentioned - there are ways to get out of the dark patterns, if you're alert enough. It's the same reason there isn't more of an outcry against abusive practices in the credit card industry - the most affluent and educated CC users, those who would be likely to lead an effective campaign for change, always pay off their bill in full and never deal with the CC industry's abusive practices. So it goes with TurboTax - if you give consumers an out, their much more likely to blame themselves (or blame the people caught up in it) when they're taken advantage of.
Re: Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?
#20Actually the worst dark pattern is implemented by the IRS. No doubt lobbying keeps it this way.
The process for online filing with the IRS is a hot mess, and extremely difficult to navigate. For example, it is impossible for me to file 1099-NEC for my contractors without first obtaining a special ID delivered via mail in 45 days. I can't print and mail from the IRS website either -- I have to first request the form. Check out this cryptic mess