Live data from Hacker News

Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

devever.net

151–160 of 202 posts

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#151

> Actually, it gets worse. Here's what the GPLv2 says about termination: > So if you violate the licence, it is terminated. That's it. Given that “you” may refer to a corporation, this creates the following disturbing possibility: This is called the GPL death penalty, has actually happen in the past even before the article was written. It is yet another thing fixed by the oft-maligned GPLv3. Samba switched to GPLv3 b…

GPLv3 isn’t a useful license because it makes the use of software in automotive devices effectively impossible. And I think this is a security issue as well because the vendors still rely on very old GPLv2 versions of software and can’t update even if they wanted to.

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#152

> Actually, it gets worse. Here's what the GPLv2 says about termination: > So if you violate the licence, it is terminated. That's it. Given that “you” may refer to a corporation, this creates the following disturbing possibility: This is called the GPL death penalty, has actually happen in the past even before the article was written. It is yet another thing fixed by the oft-maligned GPLv3. Samba switched to GPLv3 b…

> death penalty

Can we slow down with the FUD please? GPLv3 is extremely lenient with license violations and GPLv2 is not. Yet, calling it "death penalty" is absurd.

Millions of contracts have clauses for immediate termination, and often with less clear reasons than copyright violation. Plenty of free services like HN can close an account at any time and nobody calls it "death penalty".

Do we see thousands of companies suddenly losing millions because of a GPLv2 breach? Nope.

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#153

Linux is licensed under GPLv2 with an additional permission (or exception): > NOTE! This copyright does not cover user programs that use kernel services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal use of the kernel, and does not fall under the heading of "derived work". All the contributors license their work under this license with this additional permission. So in that sense it's not really Linus inte…

There are actually two possibilities here:

(1) The text of the GPLv2 does legitimately restrict user programs as derivative works of the kernel, and therefore a license exception is needed from the licensors in order avoid violating the license or copyright law.

(2) User programs are not legitimately derivative works of the kernel, and therefore a license exception is not required, and anything said on the subject is mere commentary about the prevailing legal state of affairs.

In my opinion, the idea that user programs are - in general - derivative works of the kernel is nonsense, but for people who worry that they are or might be, the clarification or exception (whichever) is quite convenient. A court is not going to enforce a requirement on the licensees that the licensors and copyright holders explicitly deny and disavow, no matter what any third party thinks about the subject.

The situation with in kernel modules is more complicated, because there the licensor copyright holders appear to be convinced that nearly any kernel module is legitimately classified as a derivative work, so estoppel doesn't apply and whether a kernel module is actually a derivative work depends such things as how much kernel inline code was included in the compilation process, if not other apparent legal nonsense like compatibility and purpose which appears to have no basis in copyright law as something that in and of itself makes for a derivative work at all.

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's some confusion in the above post. The relevant "derived work" definition for the purpose of linking isn't one stemming from copyright law, it's the one in the GPL itself. This is because the GPL defines what licensees are permitted to do with the licensed work, and it imposes restrictions on those rights. Copyright law by default lets you make very little use of the software - the GPL broadens that ou…

Let's imagine the following scenario. I am creating and distributing a program that, when run on a user's system, will dynamically link with a copy of libc. I am not distributing this copy, but my program will fail to run if no such copy exists. Furthermore, I tell my customers that the only lib C I officially support is FictitiousLibC, released under the full GPL (not the LGPL like the real GNU Libc). The question i…

> I am not claiming that running on an OS is the same as dynamically linking with a library

In pretty much any case, it literally is: you're dynamically linking against the libc. This is a little fuzzier on Linux (because, as you mention, multiple libc implementations exist), but on Windows, macOS, and the BSDs, the only supported way to make syscalls is to make calls into a dynamically linked libc, provided by the operating system.

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the license is void then copyright law applies.

Yes, but copying a piece of software from a CD into program memory or onto my own hard-drive for archival purposes has been established as a fair-use exemption. So, if I legally acquire a copy of a program (say, I buy a CD), it can't impose extra restrictions after-the-fact through an EULA that only appears when I run it, and I am well within my rights to use my copy (e.g. by copying it into RAM/CPU icache to run it)…

The GPL is a license that applies only to software code and not to the end-user software.

A book allegory is more like an author decides to embed the several chapters of one of Rowling's "Harry Potter" books verbatim in a fanfic novel. You could buy or download the novel and have every right to read it, lend it, or re-sell it but the original fanfic author is in copyright violation. If Rowling had published her books under something akin to the GPL, there might be a legal question as to what constitutes a "derived work" (and this is a real thing in the book publishing world, complete with legals precedents) but at every point the license to use the copyrighted characters, locations, etc. applies only to the author of the derived work, not to their readers.

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#156
If this were taken to an extreme then nothing proprietary could run on this kernel. That is not the intent of the code authors in many cases and frankly the wording of GPLv2 being so vague here is as Linus has said part of it's strength.

Given the very open context of how it's taken by the community the worst that will ever happen is the kernel eventually getting relicensed under GPLv2+Legal_Pedantry rather than nVidia or vmware being forced to open up their product codebases.

Frankly this then gets even messier when considering copyright law, frankly given the weird status of an ABI/API in legal definitions this is the fault of the courts not the linux-kernel or the software devs...

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#157

I rather use Mozilla Public License 2.0, Eclipse Public License 2.0, or EUPL 1.2 for copyleft purposes. Strong copyleft as a concept has no legal reality. Linking a program to another don't produce a derivative work. https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/eupl/news/why-viral-l... FSF is full of baloney about how static or dynamic linking is different than communicating for example through sockets. To be able to use t…

It does mater the way the creator of the software licensed it. If the creators of the GPL specifically made a distinction between static and dynamic linking, then you're constrained by the distinction they made, if you agree or not.

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#158
post #89

Is there any legal significance to "clean-room" reverse-engineering? I hear this term a lot from engineers who seem to think that they're entitled to claim ownership over distinct works created by people who read their source code (and in extreme cases their documentation or even disassembled binaries), but that's not how any other form of intellectual property works.

IANAL This is the difference between patents and copyright. A mechanism that is patented can not be implemented by anyone. It doesn't matter if they did or did not read your source, they cannot implement it. It doesn't even matter if they knew the patent existed or that even that it had been done before. Copyright is a lot more forgiving. It only covers the exact implementation. Doing a clean room implemation means y…

For patents, you can do your implementation, but you need to pay for the privilege.

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#159
post #151

> Actually, it gets worse. Here's what the GPLv2 says about termination: > So if you violate the licence, it is terminated. That's it. Given that “you” may refer to a corporation, this creates the following disturbing possibility: This is called the GPL death penalty, has actually happen in the past even before the article was written. It is yet another thing fixed by the oft-maligned GPLv3. Samba switched to GPLv3 b…

GPLv3 isn’t a useful license because it makes the use of software in automotive devices effectively impossible. And I think this is a security issue as well because the vendors still rely on very old GPLv2 versions of software and can’t update even if they wanted to.

[deleted]

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#160
post #151

> Actually, it gets worse. Here's what the GPLv2 says about termination: > So if you violate the licence, it is terminated. That's it. Given that “you” may refer to a corporation, this creates the following disturbing possibility: This is called the GPL death penalty, has actually happen in the past even before the article was written. It is yet another thing fixed by the oft-maligned GPLv3. Samba switched to GPLv3 b…

GPLv3 isn’t a useful license because it makes the use of software in automotive devices effectively impossible. And I think this is a security issue as well because the vendors still rely on very old GPLv2 versions of software and can’t update even if they wanted to.

> it makes the use of software in automotive devices effectively impossible.

No, it doesn't, any more than repair laws do.

Post reply on HN