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UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

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Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#71

Well as nobody tought the founders to Google, Facebook or Microsoft to program a computer - especially at school, there is absolutely no logical reason to teach kids such a specific skill. The programmers I know, and notable the better ones are all self-taught (with the help of the astonishingly open and supportive IT community). I think the author of the letter is somewhat confused as to Eric Schmidt's sentiment. I…

I got my start in Elementary school. Sadly, it was an advanced class and not available to everyone. (You had to skip a day of regular classes each week, and your grades couldn't fall behind in them... So you essentially did 6 days worth of school work every week, instead of 5.)

They taught us the basics of programming, and that was about it. But it was enough to light the flame and I've been passionate about it ever since.

It's okay for people to be bad at some things, or even not care about them. Schools should spend more time introducing arts and skills to students. Let the students decide what they want to study beyond the basics that everyone needs to know.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#72

While I'm aware this may get downvoted to the depths, I feel I have to say it. Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects. While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going…

Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects.

This is a false dichotomy. In High School I took classes on Weightlifting (twice), Drama, Art, French 1, Spanish 1, and was a teacher's assistant twice (what a waste that was...). There were also classes available in tractor repair, farming, ROTC, track and field, etc. Our high school was able to fit more classes in than other schools because each year was split into fall and spring with 4 classes each half.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that there's room for more and for modification. Also how about tying math into programming? Or combining reading/writing/language in beneficial ways, etc.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#73
Government education is tuned for creating hordes of marginally competent workers well versed in the carrotstick of long term repetitive menial task work. This isn't an accident and is highly unlikely to change anytime soon. To solve the problem for our family we choose to home educate our kids. It is awesome.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#74

While I'm aware this may get downvoted to the depths, I feel I have to say it. Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects. While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going…

Honestly, school time is not that scarce. An adult can learn to read and write in a couple of days of intensive practice. Maths can take longer, but have the same issues as programming - how many cruise directors use more than arithmetic? Learning programming can be easily misconstrued. Lets call it logic, algorithms and applied maths. Now is it a good idea? Sure, and its something a hypothetical cruise director coul…

Okay, so, funny story: one of my programmer buddies worked for a cruise line. He's an almost-autistic free-radical type of programmer. After fixing up their website, he wrote a new application for the onboard ship customer management system. (The current one is atrocious and a decade old.)

But the project never got the green light and was killed.

If a cruise director had some experience in programming, and realized that the system could be better, then the project could have been pushed for more! Maybe it would actually be on the 30-ish ships in their fleet!

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#75

While I'm aware this may get downvoted to the depths, I feel I have to say it. Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects. While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going…

At the risk of making this point to death:

> If you took a random person you passed on a busy London street at lunch time, how much better do you think they would be able to do their job if they knew how to program?

A while back I was in a meeting being given a presentation that had previously been given to the CEO of our company (they were giving it to us to keep us up to date). In it, there was a quite obvious problem with the numbers where the reported percentage increase was nowhere near what the numbers suggested. I raised my hand to point it out and was mildly surprised when the manager giving the presentation told me that he didn't want to report numbers that were too high. I decided not to point out that mathematics doesn't care about what he wants to report.

So anyway, this guy who is paid lots of money at a reasonably sized company doesn't even have a passing knowledge of statistics, something that every school child was supposed to learn. Would he have been better able to do his job if he knew math? Probably. But he doesn't know math. All those years in school didn't really rub off on him.

In any case, if you were to ask how many people use literary analysis, math, art, history or science in their work the answer is going to be close to zero. It's true that lots of people write as part of their job, but most people write poorly and most writing classes focus on analyzing Shakespeare, not writing reports on employee efficiency.

Another argument for programming in schools is the same as the argument for literature in schools. Even if you never need to program in the real world being able to program implies that you have certain cognitive and logical abilities that many jobs require. For example, it is important to be logical if you are a lawyer, even though you needn't program.

I would not be prepared to dismiss coding out of hand because not many people are programmers. I bet it is more pertinent then most of the things I learned in high school.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#77

While I'm aware this may get downvoted to the depths, I feel I have to say it. Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects. While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going…

My view is that the average Londoner would benefit more from having been taught the basics of programming at a young age than where to find the font choices in Word.

My view is the average teacher is just about competent enough to teach the average Londoner where to find the fonts on Word but would probably do more harm than good when it came to teaching the theory behind programming.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Welsh is pretty much useless, but we're talking about introducing a new subject. Maths is useful in a lot more situations than programming would be, I bet most people don't realize how often they use maths without realizing. Things like algebra are about logic, deducing things, figuring things out. French is, again, a subject that can be dropped at 16 and not a core subject. I didn't study French at school (Tech…

Programming is _also_ about logic, deducing things, figuring things out!

My inclination is probably towards teaching logic, probably as part of the maths curriculum, and by extension teaching a little programming as part of that logic.

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#79

While I'm aware this may get downvoted to the depths, I feel I have to say it. Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects. While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going…

The word programming is distorting the real value of the subject, I think. It's easy to think of programming as something that is done with and to computers exclusively, but that's a sort of guilt by association. Programming, at its base, is really a method for understanding and defining a process. It's about breaking a big task down into its component pieces. It's about turning one large, nearly intractable problem…

[deleted]

Re: UK government response to my letter about programming in schools

#80

While I'm aware this may get downvoted to the depths, I feel I have to say it. Why should kids be taught programming instead of reading, writing, language and maths? If the curriculum was changed to include programming, it would almost certainly reduce the funding and time put into other, more important subjects. While a good understanding of computers will help with almost any job in the future, unless you're going…

The word programming is distorting the real value of the subject, I think. It's easy to think of programming as something that is done with and to computers exclusively, but that's a sort of guilt by association. Programming, at its base, is really a method for understanding and defining a process. It's about breaking a big task down into its component pieces. It's about turning one large, nearly intractable problem…

This.

Programming = problem solving with logic and consideration of efficiency.

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