Earlier quoted context omitted.
GPL is a nice idea...but you need lawyers lots of money and time. I hate lawyers and i don't have time for that bs nor do it have/want money to spend for lawyers, i was a diehard gpl evangelist in my 20`s, now it's BSD/MIT/ISC (and not diehard anymore...more like IDGAS)...and i really don't care for religion anymore...just quality and real freedom.
My company does whatever it can to comply with GPL requirements and it is nothing short of a goddamn nightmare. Nothing like sitting in a conference room for hours with lawyers while we poured through the licenses for 250 different packages; we would have been better off just burning the money. My conclusions are that most Linux distributions are an amalgam of software packages with licenses that are fundamentally in…
Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)
41–50 of 202 posts
Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)
#42> The userspace ABI is stable and intended not to cause anything targeting it to become a derived work. But once again, this seems to be a way in which the kernel project seems to think it has the power to interpret the GPL. In their minds, targeting the userspace ABI doesn't make a derived work, but writing a module does, unless it only targets GPL_ONLY symbols, in which case for some reason it isn't. I think this w…
> I think this whole part applies as much to the text of the GPL itself as to the common Linux explanation. The GPL draws a distinction between dynamic linking, static linking, and use over a network or through a CLI style interface to decide if a work is a derived work of the GPL program. I just rechecked and it does not seem the GPLv2 does such things. I've not rechecked for v3, but from memory it does not do that…
Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)
#43I rather use Mozilla Public License 2.0, Eclipse Public License 2.0, or EUPL 1.2 for copyleft purposes. Strong copyleft as a concept has no legal reality. Linking a program to another don't produce a derivative work. https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/eupl/news/why-viral-l... FSF is full of baloney about how static or dynamic linking is different than communicating for example through sockets. To be able to use t…
It is the difference between a book citing another, and pasting large portions in.
Tldr; I see a distinction but probably disagree with fsf on dynamic linking.
Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)
#44This is no cure, but quite a few kernel developers have signed this: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v5.16/process/kernel-enforce...
Finally, once a non-compliance issue is resolved, we hope the user will feel welcome to join us in our efforts on this project. Working together, we will be stronger."
A strong, collaborative stance - good stuff.
Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)
#45> It is rather ironic that in some ways, one has more freedom in how one licences a kernel driver for Windows than the freedom one supposedly has in writing a kernel module for Linux. it is not ironic at all: freedom in Free Software is the freedom of USERS of the software to be able to see and modify the source. This is a freedom granted by the writers of the software, and copyleft means that this right is ensured t…
Yeah this is not a "no license" freedom situation. People routinely get this wrong.
Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)
#46I rather use Mozilla Public License 2.0, Eclipse Public License 2.0, or EUPL 1.2 for copyleft purposes. Strong copyleft as a concept has no legal reality. Linking a program to another don't produce a derivative work. https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/eupl/news/why-viral-l... FSF is full of baloney about how static or dynamic linking is different than communicating for example through sockets. To be able to use t…
The only question that matters is "does this piece of software derive from this other piece.". How they are linked together has no meaning. Hackers like to misunderstand that and think they can work around the GPL by how they bundle the two pieces together.
The CLISP case is a classic example. It bundled and dynamically linked readline, and as a result it got a significantly better command line interface. The author argued that this didn't make it a derivative works and didn't need to licence his code as GPL as a result. But that violated the terms of readline, which plainly says if you want to use readline to provide a powerful command line interface then you have to license your code as GPL.
You can always opt not to use the useful libraries and code that exist as GPL, but you can't take your cake and eat it too.
Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)
#47I rather use Mozilla Public License 2.0, Eclipse Public License 2.0, or EUPL 1.2 for copyleft purposes. Strong copyleft as a concept has no legal reality. Linking a program to another don't produce a derivative work. https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/eupl/news/why-viral-l... FSF is full of baloney about how static or dynamic linking is different than communicating for example through sockets. To be able to use t…
I.e. if you never distribute/reproduce the GPL part, then the GPL obviously can not apply; if you distribute the GPL part, then the GPL terms apply to you, even if your work is not derivative, and even if those terms are "you must do the chicken dance so that we give permission to reproduce our software"; after all, that is how most EULAs are enforced. It just happens that in this case the chicken dance comprises some fancy definitions of linking and some extra things you may have to distribute rather than a exchange of money.
Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah this is not a "no license" freedom situation. People routinely get this wrong.
well, you have to admit its a little confusing. its so free, that by accepting it, I can constraint your future behavior (making it less free really), so that other people have the same freedom with respect to your contributions (being constrained) as you did
Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)
#49I believe there may be some reasons why you may want proprietary (or incompatibly licensed) kernel modules. In such cases, as long as you didn't take code from the Kernel, I believe it shouldn't be considered a derivative work. I believe my opinion is quite unpopular and not share within the FOSS community. I honestly speaking prefer BSD or MIT for the linking purposes. I believe forbidding linking makes it too restr…
> I believe it shouldn't be considered a derivative work Isn't the point of the majority of this document, that nobody, not individual rightsholders, nor the FSF, not even the Linux Kernel Project, has the legal authority or knowledge to interpret the LGPLv2. That fundamentally the LGPLv2 is a legal document and therefore the only people able to create an interpretation of this document are lawyers, and even then, th…
Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)
#50> The licence is specifically GPLv2 and not “GPLv2 or later”, which is the default when applying the GPLv2 to software.
Because Linus didn't and doesn't want the FSF relicensing Linux with new restrictions to fit their specific political goals[0], on the basis that adding any further restrictions to GPL violates the spirit of the GPL. He's not opposed to using v3 software, he just doesn't like upgrade clauses on Linux.
> Linus Torvalds seems to speak as though he has the power to interpret the GPL. He does not; nor does the FSF.
Linus is a copyright holder. So is the FSF. While a judge would ultimately be interpreting the GPL in an enforcement case, the words of the copyright holder have significant weight when interpreting a license. So, if you write LKMs that infringe the GPL, the court will listen to Linus to determine where the boundary is. Likewise if you wrote infringing GPL plugins the court would listen to the FSF.
> Supposedly, the requirements of the GPLv2 do not apply to the userspace ABI.
Yes, because Linus said so. This isn't even an implied license thing; Linux has always had an explicit exception for the ABI.
It is actually an open question whether or not bundling an application with some GPL host program trips the GPL copyleft. The word "program" in the GPL is strategically vague here; it does not correspond to an address space. Two or more processes with IPC could be considered to be one program[1].
Related note: emulator developers writing GPLv2 or v3 emulators should seriously consider clarifying that bundling a game with an emulator doesn't make the game itself part of the same program as the emulator.
> Conversely, the Linux kernel project claims that the GPLv2 conditions do apply to the kernel-mode ABI.
No, quite the opposite. The Linux kernel project has claimed that kernel-mode symbols equivalent to the userspace ABI do not trip the GPL copyleft. That's why they have the GPL_ONLY DRM[2]; it's to distinguish between "running two programs in the same address space" and "merging a module into the same GPL program".
> If modules are derived works, then every non-GPL non-cleanroomed module is violating the GPLv2. This creates a ticking time bomb for companies which rely on this ability, because they could get sued by any contributor at any time.
> If modules are not derived works, the “GPL_ONLY” provision is meaningless and unenforceable.
Well, first off... clean room is not a legal requirement, it's a defense against the access prong of substantial similarity in an infringement lawsuit. This would apply if you were writing your own kernel that can run Linux programs[3] - you would need to defend against claims that you just copied Linux instead of writing a workalike.
Loadable kernel modules are not workalikes; they are additional programs that can modify how the Linux kernel works. To the extent that a loadable module modifies the original program or incorporates it into itself, it can be considered to be a derivative work. But since the userspace ABI has been explicitly opted out of the GPL copyleft, those modules can still use it. GPL_ONLY exists purely to technically enforce what Linus believes the license on Linux is.
>It is rather ironic that in some ways, one has more freedom in how one licences a kernel driver for Windows than the freedom one supposedly has in writing a kernel module for Linux. (...) Under such a model of copyright, the IBM PC could never have been reverse engineered and cloned, and the computer on which I am typing this would not exist.
Oh boy.
You're allowed to write kernel drivers for Windows because Microsoft explicitly said that you could. Linus does the same thing with GPL_ONLY. I'm pretty sure the NT kernel has it's own internal symbols you're not allowed to link with, and Microsoft could allege in court that doing so creates an infringing derivative work. The confusion doesn't come from the GPL, it comes from copyright law.
This, again, has nothing to do with cloning; Compaq didn't need to ship code that links with the IBM PC BIOS. They needed to ship code that replaced it entirely. There is a difference between replacing a program and linking with it.
The article also alleges that a single Linux contributor could pull an SCO and sue every company that's ever written non-GPL kernel code. I don't think that would actually work, because the userspace ABI exception that spawns all this is part of the license that the contributor implicitly agreed to when they modified Linux and sent that code upstream. Furthermore, every contributor is downstream of precisely one copyright holder: Linus Torvalds.
If you don't have a license from Linus to modify Linux, then you own nothing and cannot sue. So you're arguing that Linus gave you permission to modify and sublicense under specific rules he selected, but that he's not allowed to interpret those rules at all because you made a small part of Linux? That's probably not going to fly in court.
[0] https://lkml.org/lkml/2006/9/25/161
Also, related note: at one point the FSF was seriously mulling rolling AGPL into GPLv3, which is insane.
[1] Most browsers are structured as IPC process networks nowadays, and contain loads of permissively licensed, LGPL, and proprietary code all mixed together. If GPL "programs" were just address spaces, then they could spawn GPL code in a subprocess to evade the copyleft.
[2] Digital Rights Management, not Direct Rendering Manager.
[3] Examples of such programs would include iSH and Windows Subsystem for Linux (version 1; v2 actually runs the Linux kernel).