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Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

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Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#21
> Linus Torvalds seems to speak as though he has the power to interpret the GPL.

IANAIPL but intent of the parties does generally matter to any legal analysis of an agreement. This is especially true when discussing written evidence of intent. Arguably, the discussion of GPL_ONLY could be taken to mean that those without such a marking are being granted an exception by the authors, which is perfectly well within their power to do.

https://legal.thomsonreuters.com/blog/the-parol-evidence-rul...

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#22

Good writeup on the intricacies and consequences of the Linux kernel being GPLv2 licensed. The actual headline is debatable. However, It seems to me that the license doesn't matter that much, since everyone has a vested interest in Linux being exactly the way it is, GPL_ONLY weirdness and all. It's unlikely that someone will show up and fork Linux and explicitly break the license (using GPL_ONLY symbols in a non-GPL…

How feasible is it to avoid using GPL_ONLY symbols? Because if you for sure need GPL modules for some use cases[1], then I believe the point still stands.

[1] This is, being unable to even reimplement the functions yourself in a self-contained module.

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#23
>It is rather ironic that in some ways, one has more freedom in how one licences a kernel driver for Windows than the freedom one supposedly has in writing a kernel module for Linux.

it is not ironic at all: freedom in Free Software is the freedom of USERS of the software to be able to see and modify the source. This is a freedom granted by the writers of the software, and copyleft means that this right is ensured through any chain of modifications by additional authors.

In this same way, the GPL and like licenses are the most permissive licenses from the perspective of every eventual user

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#24

I believe there may be some reasons why you may want proprietary (or incompatibly licensed) kernel modules. In such cases, as long as you didn't take code from the Kernel, I believe it shouldn't be considered a derivative work. I believe my opinion is quite unpopular and not share within the FOSS community. I honestly speaking prefer BSD or MIT for the linking purposes. I believe forbidding linking makes it too restr…

> I believe it shouldn't be considered a derivative work

Isn't the point of the majority of this document, that nobody, not individual rightsholders, nor the FSF, not even the Linux Kernel Project, has the legal authority or knowledge to interpret the LGPLv2. That fundamentally the LGPLv2 is a legal document and therefore the only people able to create an interpretation of this document are lawyers, and even then, their interpretation is subject to how a judge might decide in a court of law?

So therefore, your beliefs, my beliefs, anyone's beliefs on this are mere conjecture or supposition, and can be considered essentially worthless. Ultimately, how it plays out depends on legal precedence, jurisdiction, judge, hell- the weather on the day of the trial and the specific circumstances in which it is brought up in the court system.

Ergo, isn't it more than a little presumptuous to debate on this matter? To put forth your opinion and opine it as what you believe, and therefore as some degree of possibility or fact, despite there being essentially no reference point unless a lawyer was actually contacted and was able to provide an interpretation?

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#25
> The userspace ABI is stable and intended not to cause anything targeting it to become a derived work. But once again, this seems to be a way in which the kernel project seems to think it has the power to interpret the GPL. In their minds, targeting the userspace ABI doesn't make a derived work, but writing a module does, unless it only targets GPL_ONLY symbols, in which case for some reason it isn't.

I think this whole part applies as much to the text of the GPL itself as to the common Linux explanation. The GPL draws a distinction between dynamic linking, static linking, and use over a network or through a CLI style interface to decide if a work is a derived work of the GPL program. But, this distinction is just a novel legal theory proposal at best - there is nothing in copyright law that would make the GPL distinctions authoritative.

A license simply doesn't get to decide what constitutes a derived work - that's entirely up to copyright law itself and the court system to decide.

On the other hand, unless and until Congress decides to explicitly legislate how copyright should apply to software, the courts can very well take common industry practice into consideration for judging what is and is not a derived work of a program, and in this sense the Linux kernel developers' opinion is in no way less impactful than the proposals in the GPL itself.

Furthermore, in a matter of contract law (so assuming that the work is indeed judged to be derived according to copyright law, but now judging whether the GPL may offer some relevant exemptions), the stated intentions and interpretations of the parties of the contract are indeed relevant. If there is a long history of kernel developers publicly stating that as long as you are not using GPL_ONLY symbols, your work should not be considered to be under the purview of the GPL, and if this has not been commonly publicly contested, I think that in an actual trial this will matter much more than other interpretations of the GPL.

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#26
post #19
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPL is a nice idea...but you need lawyers lots of money and time. I hate lawyers and i don't have time for that bs nor do it have/want money to spend for lawyers, i was a diehard gpl evangelist in my 20`s, now it's BSD/MIT/ISC (and not diehard anymore...more like IDGAS)...and i really don't care for religion anymore...just quality and real freedom.

>GPL is a nice idea...but you need lawyers lots of money and time. This applies to any license. BSD/MIT/ISC rules can be broken as well and the only means to rectify it in the case that the other party refuses to cooperate is to resort to litigation.

>BSD/MIT/ISC rules can be broken as well

No one cares and no one has interests to break them for financial gain...not even lawyers (that's the good part)

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#27
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPL is a nice idea...but you need lawyers lots of money and time. I hate lawyers and i don't have time for that bs nor do it have/want money to spend for lawyers, i was a diehard gpl evangelist in my 20`s, now it's BSD/MIT/ISC (and not diehard anymore...more like IDGAS)...and i really don't care for religion anymore...just quality and real freedom.

My company does whatever it can to comply with GPL requirements and it is nothing short of a goddamn nightmare. Nothing like sitting in a conference room for hours with lawyers while we poured through the licenses for 250 different packages; we would have been better off just burning the money. My conclusions are that most Linux distributions are an amalgam of software packages with licenses that are fundamentally in…

>short of a goddamn nightmare

It is....don't touch lawyers if you want to get real wok done.

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#28
post #24

I believe there may be some reasons why you may want proprietary (or incompatibly licensed) kernel modules. In such cases, as long as you didn't take code from the Kernel, I believe it shouldn't be considered a derivative work. I believe my opinion is quite unpopular and not share within the FOSS community. I honestly speaking prefer BSD or MIT for the linking purposes. I believe forbidding linking makes it too restr…

> I believe it shouldn't be considered a derivative work Isn't the point of the majority of this document, that nobody, not individual rightsholders, nor the FSF, not even the Linux Kernel Project, has the legal authority or knowledge to interpret the LGPLv2. That fundamentally the LGPLv2 is a legal document and therefore the only people able to create an interpretation of this document are lawyers, and even then, th…

I believe this reply is presuntous.

Edit: Also, this is about the GPL2, not the LGPL.

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#29
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPL is a nice idea...but you need lawyers lots of money and time. I hate lawyers and i don't have time for that bs nor do it have/want money to spend for lawyers, i was a diehard gpl evangelist in my 20`s, now it's BSD/MIT/ISC (and not diehard anymore...more like IDGAS)...and i really don't care for religion anymore...just quality and real freedom.

My company does whatever it can to comply with GPL requirements and it is nothing short of a goddamn nightmare. Nothing like sitting in a conference room for hours with lawyers while we poured through the licenses for 250 different packages; we would have been better off just burning the money. My conclusions are that most Linux distributions are an amalgam of software packages with licenses that are fundamentally in…

Those 250 packages likely don't have custom forks of the GPL license. Handling of legal requirements for each package should be templatable by management based on whether a particular package is GPLv2, GPLv3 or AGPLv3 and has a linking exception.

Re: Linux's GPLv2 licence is routinely violated (2015)

#30

> Linus Torvalds seems to speak as though he has the power to interpret the GPL. IANAIPL but intent of the parties does generally matter to any legal analysis of an agreement. This is especially true when discussing written evidence of intent. Arguably, the discussion of GPL_ONLY could be taken to mean that those without such a marking are being granted an exception by the authors, which is perfectly well within thei…

But parole evidence is trickier to apply here than you might imagine. It only applies where there is an ambiguity in the text, and probably matters much less where 3rd parties are to be bound by a license, instead of two parties to a contract.

Imagine, say, Microsoft (bogeyman) explaining what we really meant is that "Licensees shall give us their first born child."

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