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C meeting is over. C23 added:

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Re: C meeting is over. C23 added:

#31

Post by uncomputation »

pkrumins wrote: post #6
sam_bristow wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that embedded compilers are not known for keeping up with the standards. The only hope is that the moves to GCC and Clang continue.

No one cares about the standards. We only care about getting things done by writing regular C code that works.

Huh? What do you think defines “regular C code that works”? Standards.

Every compiler you have used operates at a bare minimum on the C standard. That’s why they are often advertised (if not GCC/Clang which are assumed to be up to date) as “C(89|99|11|17) compliant.” “Code that works” is code which is operates under constraints and guarantees specified by a standard, anything else is undefined or unportable.

Re: C meeting is over. C23 added:

#32

Post by 10x-dev »

mungoman2 wrote: post #2

I can't tell if this is serious. Surely if you're still using C now it's for legacy reasons. And if using it for legacy reasons you are likely stuck using an old C standard. So who will use C23?

C is the best choice if you want all of: small (both language and binaries), fast (both compiler and binaries), obvious (no/minimal complex magic), close to the metal, with excellent debugging support, portability and integrations.

No other language has been battle tested for longer and more extensively than C.

Your kernels, OSes, drivers, databases, web servers and compilers are written in C.

If some of these features are not important to you, there are hundreds of slower, more complex and less portable languages to choose from, that provide other benefits instead, such as more convenience, more correctness and higher level abstractions.

Re: C meeting is over. C23 added:

#33

Post by shakna »

mungoman2 wrote: post #2

I can't tell if this is serious. Surely if you're still using C now it's for legacy reasons. And if using it for legacy reasons you are likely stuck using an old C standard. So who will use C23?

How many of your preferred programming languages are written in C?

Yes, many self-host, but a considerable number of them don't want the complications that can bring.

Re: C meeting is over. C23 added:

#34

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

rwmj wrote: post #18

So true and false keywords are the only thing that has been added, or am I missing a part of this thread? Edit: I think one of these could be a better link: https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/23 http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2864.pdf

They're still macros. C will never add new keywords outside the reserved namespace.

Re: C meeting is over. C23 added:

#35

Post by fulafel »

rwmj wrote: post #18

So true and false keywords are the only thing that has been added, or am I missing a part of this thread? Edit: I think one of these could be a better link: https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/23 http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2864.pdf

The cppreference.com link says it removes "Representations for signed integers other than two's complement" - this could be pretty significant in making many previously implementation-defined programming patterns strictly conforming, but is it true? Doesn't seem mentioned in the Twitter thread.

Re: C meeting is over. C23 added:

#36

Post by plafl »

reassembled wrote: post #20
kstenerud wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will. C is everywhere and is not going away (it's #2 on TIOBE and on the rise again). Now that fewer people are learning it, I get more juicy contracts.

I feel like there’s actually a growing subculture of C programmers of late, seemingly spawned by Casey Muratori’s Handmade Hero series, Zed Shaw’s “Learn C The Hard” way and other more recent popularizations of C and low level programming ideas. There’s a whole “Handmade” software scene growing up, seemingly as a reaction against the bloat and over engineering of more recent software trends like Electron and web apps…

C++ requires to devote your life to it but you can learn C and spend a year using it and suddenly you have a dangerous but powerful tool in your toolbox forever.

Re: C meeting is over. C23 added:

#37

Post by sgt »

Based on another thread - I think the following topic should be an interesting one for HN to chew on: If someone wanted to write systems type of programming (whether it be embedded or Unix tools or even writing a library), should they go for C (C23) or Rust today?

Re: C meeting is over. C23 added:

#39

Post by bruce343434 »

sgt wrote: post #37

Based on another thread - I think the following topic should be an interesting one for HN to chew on: If someone wanted to write systems type of programming (whether it be embedded or Unix tools or even writing a library), should they go for C (C23) or Rust today?

I'm going for C, because I am experienced with C and despite it being more tedious, with having to do everything yourself, I stick with it because the compile times, and in fact the compile process, are so much faster and simpler. I really enjoy the direct feedback I can get. I considered C++ but that too had terrible compile times. Ideally a debug build should simply not take longer than 100ms for a codebase that isn't even 5KLoc, and only C seems to be able to offer that experience.

Re: C meeting is over. C23 added:

#40

Post by WithinReason »

10x-dev wrote: post #32
mungoman2 wrote: post #2

I can't tell if this is serious. Surely if you're still using C now it's for legacy reasons. And if using it for legacy reasons you are likely stuck using an old C standard. So who will use C23?

C is the best choice if you want all of: small (both language and binaries), fast (both compiler and binaries), obvious (no/minimal complex magic), close to the metal, with excellent debugging support, portability and integrations. No other language has been battle tested for longer and more extensively than C. Your kernels, OSes, drivers, databases, web servers and compilers are written in C. If some of these featur…

Languages exist that compile to C which gives them many of the above advantages and more, so why choose C over them?
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