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The Dubai Debt Trap

economist.com

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Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#321

Post by selestify »

tzs wrote: post #175
moralestapia wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is literally a written law that is being properly followed. Although the end result may be questionable, there is a legal framework by which disputes could be reasonably resolved, while trying to preserve the rights of all parties involved. In other places you have no such thing and, trust me, things are much worse.

That is not the law. The law is that such theft is a misdemeanor which caries up to 6 months of jail time and a fine of up to $1000. They are not prosecuted in San Francisco because the DA chooses not to do so.

Why does the DA choose not to?

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#322

Post by selestify »

apohn wrote: post #98
ludamad wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a lot of people like to feel like the rest of the world is a shithole." I wouldn't say that's my bias - I like to travel so I like to feel like the rest of the world is welcoming. However, clear problems that are different from what I'm used to do make me uncomfortable

>I like to travel so I like to feel like the rest of the world is welcoming. I'm not making any assumptions about you in this post, but just making a comment. I think the challenge here is that "welcoming" is relative to who you are, including your financial status and skin color. There are countries people talk about on HN and Reddit which are super welcoming, everybody is friendly, great for remote work, taking an…

Out of curiosity, which country was that?

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#323

Post by selestify »

fishtacos wrote: post #168
apohn wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Given that, I don't think I have ever read anything good about the UAE There are 10 million people living in the UAE, 90% of which are expats. Lots of them live comfortable lives in the sense that they do what most people do - get jobs, have kids, do their daily routine, meet their friends, and all that regular stuff. They live normal regular lives and find fulfillment in those things. It's no different than anywher…

How many of those expats are working slave-like conditions, is the greater point that ought to be discussed. (Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Philippines, Iraq, you name it). If 10 percent of the country's population is native, they are surely benefiting from subsidized education, housing, preferential (read: racist) employment, free land, and so on. It's VERY different from most places in the world, except for other si…

> How many of those expats are working slave-like conditions

Given that all the Indians I know think positively of Dubai, I'm inclined to think that it's very few of them, because surely they'd hear about slave conditions from people who went there before anyone else.

If you've ever been to Dubai, you'd know it's full of people from the subcontinent. Why would it be so full of them if a substantial fraction of them are kept as slaves? It just doesn't make sense. It's mostly the Western white crowd, as opposed to non-white immigrant populations, who think these sorts of things about Dubai.

edit: example of what I mean: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30387801

Dismissing all those people looking for a better life as "slave labor" just doesn't make sense.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#324

Post by selestify »

roystonvassey wrote: post #41
retube wrote: post #5

All I ever hear is horror stories about this place: environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot. I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.

Even visiting the place as a tourist left a bad taste - everything is made up, the service industry is mostly unfriendly (our sightseeing bus left us stranded somewhere and then later on the desert trip, the car broke down middle of nowhere and the driver had no other help so we had to help him fix it), no public transport to speak of, fanciest cars on one side and hapless labourers trudging in the heat alongside. Ap…

> the service industry is mostly unfriendly

Sorry to hear about your experience. Mine was wildly different, and I came away with entirely opposite impressions of their service industry.

> no public transport to speak of

How did you manage to miss all the huge flashy light rail stations? It was really convenient to use for travel throughout the city. Especially as a tourist -- just about all tourist destinations are close to a station.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#325

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

dspillett wrote: post #161
apohn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this as somebody who lived in one of those Middle Eastern countries for a good period of my life. I'm not a white person and at that time I didn't have a US/European passport, so I didn't lead an extra privalaged life there. Here's what you can hear about the USA. 1)Endless suburban sprawl, resulting in massive environmental destruction. Illegal immigrants heavily involved in the construction industry, leading…

Also, 8: almost any idiot can own a gun & ammunition, and far too many idiots do.

Fortunately, we live in a country where idiots have the same rights as those who think are smarter than them.

I, for one, am glad we aren't going back to racist gating of citizenship privileges...behind literacy tests, or economic means

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#326

Post by ludamad »

apohn wrote: post #98
ludamad wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a lot of people like to feel like the rest of the world is a shithole." I wouldn't say that's my bias - I like to travel so I like to feel like the rest of the world is welcoming. However, clear problems that are different from what I'm used to do make me uncomfortable

>I like to travel so I like to feel like the rest of the world is welcoming. I'm not making any assumptions about you in this post, but just making a comment. I think the challenge here is that "welcoming" is relative to who you are, including your financial status and skin color. There are countries people talk about on HN and Reddit which are super welcoming, everybody is friendly, great for remote work, taking an…

If I like to travel I am less likely to focus on "wanting places to be shitholes", that's all I meant in your quoted text

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#327

Post by xyzzyz »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #256
xyzzyz wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they observed what widespread drug use did to China in 19th century, and what it is doing to US now, and are trying to nip that in the bud.

What is Cannabis doing to the USA now? I’m assuming the “don’t get caught with drugs in Japan” is referring to soft drugs. Maybe I’m wrong. http://fileserver.idpc.net/library/The-history-current-state...

You know I'm not talking about cannabis.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#328

Post by rocqua »

zaphod12 wrote: post #84
apohn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this as somebody who lived in one of those Middle Eastern countries for a good period of my life. I'm not a white person and at that time I didn't have a US/European passport, so I didn't lead an extra privalaged life there. Here's what you can hear about the USA. 1)Endless suburban sprawl, resulting in massive environmental destruction. Illegal immigrants heavily involved in the construction industry, leading…

I don't know about number 7 - most of the USA is actually pretty nicely temperate. There are some exceptions like death valley (3000 sq mi) or the chihuahan dessert (about 25000 sq mi in the USA), or some parts of Alaska, but we're talking about a very small area of a 3.7 million sq mi country. If those aren't your thing, I do recommend skipping them. UAE is only 32000 sq mi and it's all very very hot. Otherwise that…

It's not about whether tge statements are representative. It's about whether people believe them. It just so happens the statements are technically true.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#329

Post by Ekaros »

slim wrote: post #289
mrwnmonm wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an Egyptian, thanks for your comment. The last time I visited Dahab (a very simple yet beautiful place in Sinai, not sure if you know it or not), I saw an Arab man, from his accent it was clear he is not an Egyptian, maybe he is a Saudi or Kuwaiti, he was having a discussion with the Hotel's reception about being charged more just because he is not an Egyptian. This is just something stupid they do to get more m…

if it's ok for employers to pay you less for the same job because you live in egypt, it's ok for a shop to charge you more because you don't live in egypt

Or it is okay to pay less for your labour as the customers can bribe you to do it. Oh I mean tip...

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#330

Post by Ekaros »

dahdum wrote: post #204
Teracotage wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who did not bother to read the article, it is about fraud during the financial crisis. I feel sad for Cornelius and wish he is set free. As a resident of Dubai for 30 years, I am always curious to learn things that I may have missed about 'my city', yet this article is misleading in many ways, its few first paragraph where it states that Ryan Cornelius 'thought the authorities had simply made a mistake;' Re…

Yeah, they really buried the admission of fraud pretty deep in the article. They forged invoices and spent 342m on unauthorized riskier projects. Sounds like the sentence may be excessive, but not the conviction.

I think when sums go over what local worker can earn in their lifetime. The life in prison is fully justified. That sounds to me as reasonable standard.
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