Live data from Hacker News

Why We Banned Legos (2006)

rethinkingschools.org

341–350 of 440 posts

Re: Why We Banned Legos (2006)

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I immediately recognized this article. I was surprised that parts of this were considered good ideas: SUPPORT STUDENTS TO RECLAIM THEIR MATHEMATICAL ANCESTRY • Intentionally include mathematicians of color. • Expose students to mathematicians of color, particularly women of color and queer mathematicians of color, both through historical examples and by inviting community guest speakers. • Teach students of color abo…

I feel like you're missing the point. The individual mathematicians don't really matter (in this particular exercise). The fact that there _were_ and _are_ mathematicians of color is what's relevant, because it turns out that representation is important. https://www.commonsensemedia.org/videos/why-race-and-represe...

It's all kind of bizarre given the historical dominance of Mediterranean mathematicians, who did not look like they were from northern Europe or speak English. Do Pythagorus and Zeno sound white?

Maybe need to blame the BBC for the "Queens Latin"

Re: Why We Banned Legos (2006)

#342
post #16

They banned them because the teachers hadn't been paying attention (and kids were hoarding the "good pieces"), and brought them back with three rules: 1. everyone can play with any structure but you can't change someone else's structure 2. play has to be together 3. all structures must be a standard size So, Minecraft claims.

The kids came up with the rules, not the teachers, which seems like a pretty important distinction here.

"manufactured consent"

the exercise would continue until the answers were acceptable

Re: Why We Banned Legos (2006)

#343
This is a story about a group playing with legos.

A small cohort within the group had full control over who could and could not use the legos, and how they were allowed to be used.

When this cohort saw other members using the legos in ways they didn't like, they took the legos away from them.

After a lengthy ideological exercise, everyone was allowed to use legos again on terms that were more ideal to the original cohort.

Re: Why We Banned Legos (2006)

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is physics is more correct, but that doesn't mean kids in an art program need to be learning about quantum dynamics. It strikes me as a leap in logic to say "Everything is politics, therefore we need to indoctrinate young children according to my progressive left politics."

I'd be curious to see what exactly you object to about the "indoctrination", given that the actual process here (if you avoid panicking at the mere presence of words like "privilege" in the narration) amounted to good critical thinking lessons around topics like "what does it mean to own something" and "what does it mean to be powerful", then getting the children to talk to each other and work out what they all felt…

> given that the actual process here ... amounted to good critical thinking lessons

It clearly, expressly, and obviously was not. The definition of indoctrination is:

> the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

But sure, I can explain what I find objectionable about the indoctrination.

From the actual article, this was not 'critical thinking lessons'. It was carefully manipulated by the adults around them to push them to a particular set of beliefs, i.e. indoctrination. E.g.:

> mirrored those of a class-based, capitalist society — a society that we teachers believe to be unjust and oppressive.

They disagree with the 'society' the children built, and want to impose their values on it instead.

> We saw the decimation of Lego-town as an opportunity to launch a critical evaluation of Legotown and the inequities of private ownership and hierarchical authority on which it was founded.

Perfect: the children are in emotional distress, this is prime time to indoctrinate. Never let a crisis go to waste, right?

> Our intention was to promote a contrasting set of values: collectivity, collaboration, resource-sharing, and full democratic participation.

Expressly stating their intent to impose a set of views on these kids, not teach them to derive their own values.

> We agreed that we want to take part in shaping the children’s understandings from a perspective of social justice.

And again expressly stating their intent to impose their views on the kids.

> “We don’t want to rebuild Legotown and go back to how things were. Instead, we want to figure out with you a way to build a Legotown that’s fair to all the kids.”

You don't get your Legos back unless you organize them in a way we agree with. More than that: you need to come up with an option that's satisfying to us. It's grotesque.

> Our intention was to create a situation in which a few children would receive unearned power from sheer good luck in choosing Lego bricks with high point values

Imposing their (provably false in this case) views on how power is derived, again, except even more subversively via a 'game'.

> Carl: “I don’t like that winners make new rules. People make rules that are only in their advantage. They could have written it simpler that said, ‘Only I win.'”

Immediately proceeding this quote, the author lauded two children for making rules that were clearly more 'fair'. Note that they did not correct Carl here, because the children hadn't fully adopted their views yet.

> To make sense of the sting of this disenfranchisement, most of the children cast Liam and Kyla as “mean,” trying to “make people feel bad.”

The lack of self-awareness here is startling. But I guess not strictly an opposition to their methods here.

> The game created a classic case of cognitive disequilibrium: Either the system is skewed and unfair, or the winners played unfairly.

Or, you know, the system is fair and the winners won while the losers lost. But, again, a digression.

> As teachers, we were excited by these comments.

"Our indoctrination was working!"

> Then we can interact with those worldviews, using play to instill the values of equality and democracy.

Their definition of equality. And there was no democracy involved in any of this. It was forced upon them from a small group of dictators (the teachers) and they were manipulated until they were indoctrinated to accept it.

That about sums up my objections.

Re: Why We Banned Legos (2006)

#345
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a kid my mother bought me and my two brothers a 5 gallon bucket of lego at a yardsale. We played with those bricks A LOT but no matter how much we built the bucket never seemed to drop below half full. There are only so many bricks you can place a day before your fingers feel like they're going to bleed. Of course, we weren't keeping builds around forever either. That's the real trick I think. Lego should…

one of my best friends growing up was from one of those kinds of families that thought Harry Potter was witchcraft, but he had a cool older brother who later showed me QBASIC and RPG Maker 95 and got me into programming. when I'd spend the night at this friend's house, we would play with legos but in a different way than most kids do, which my friend learned from his big brother: instead of building walls and roofs a…

Nice, we did the one-brick-high walls thing, too, and minifigures representing ourselves. My sister wasn't much into the epic storylines, though. :D

Re: Why We Banned Legos (2006)

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is exactly about teaching children to blindly accept hierarchy. The teachers tell them what they can play with and when, how they can play together, and why. Why should the children accept the student-teacher hierarchy? Are they old enough to question it? I suspect you have more in common with the teachers politically than you and I have in common. Perhaps you think it's good for the students to be politi…

You seem to have missed the section where they assigned point values to Legos and let the children create rules. The author clearly states that they had intended for the children to criticize the system for being unfair, but instead criticized the people within the system. The teachers wanted the children to challenge them, and they didn't! And yes, at the end of the day, the teachers always have the final authority.…

> And yes, at the end of the day, the teachers always have the final authority. Do you think it's a good idea for a group of children to never be told "no?"

And yes, at the end of the day, the party always has the final authority. Do you think it's a good idea for a group of proles to never be told "no?"

Re: Why We Banned Legos (2006)

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it obviously has inequities, so yes.

and if it has inequities, we should strive to eliminate them, yes? shouldn't someone who benefits from those inequities be obligated to help those who are harmed by them?

GP is drawing a comparison between the mindsets of two groups, not trying to litigate the morality or efficacy of different policy prescriptions.

The Ben Shapiro-style pedantic logic funnel thing is a bit of a non-sequitur in this context.

Best to toss the showmanship and make your point.

Re: Why We Banned Legos (2006)

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure that the children of the Nintendo generation frequently discussed the power dynamic of King Koopa's dictatorship over the Mushroom Kingdom, and the systematically oppressed Shyguys, who have to cover their faces in public. Well... yes, they did? Sure, not all of them, but there's plenty of fanfiction out there on the topic, and the gaming industry as a whole has devoted more than a little bit of effort to…

I think close to no children thought this at the time. It's adults that wrote all of the fan fiction, supported the industry, etc. after.

I was absolutely writing fan fiction as a nine-year-old.

Re: Why We Banned Legos (2006)

#349
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want school to teach my children anything about beliefs or what the teachers/admins believe. I want school to teach my child art and language and facts, and leave the beliefs to me.

"Facts can be effectively taught without incorporating beliefs" is a sentiment held by people egregiously unaware of their own biases

It's a good aim. It's not something you can necessarily encode in law.

Re: Why We Banned Legos (2006)

#350
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have 4 kids ages 6 and under. This is what you say: "You can't share the legos and play nice? That means that the legos are going away for tonight." "But we can share!!" "Ok, but this is your last chance." [kids play nicely or legos go away]

If you are lucky that works, but such conversations can also easily end with everyone in tears, “You don’t even like me!” “You don’t want me to have any fun!” “Everyone else was playing nice and it’s all your fault X!” etc. or various forms of subtle nastiness that goes under the radar and doesn’t disrupt the parents [which for some parents counts as mission accomplished]. In my house outcome depends substantially on…

Also, just because the kids stop shouting doesn’t mean they’ve come to a resolution that all of them feel are fair. It could just mean that one of them decided to the best strategy is to let the Wookie win.
Post reply on HN