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Carl Akeley’s fight to the death with a leopard (1923)

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Re: Carl Akeley’s fight to the death with a leopard (1923)

#11

Post by technothrasher »

LiquidPolymer wrote: post #3

Having been around wild leopards in Africa, and worked around nearly all the big cats - leopards scare me the most. A tiger or lion can be confused by unexpected behavior which can delay or slow an attack. Leopards are the most single-minded predator I've ever seen in action and the only equivalent I can think of is a great white shark. Leopards are relentless, ferocious and deadly. I suspect Mr. Ackley's encounter w…

I've very much enjoyed watching lions and cheetahs do their thing in Africa, but only the leopards fill me with awe whenever I see them. They are truly magnificent and fascinating creatures. Here's my favorite shot I took of a gorgeous young lady just outside the Sabi Sands game reserve in South Africa: http://www.skeptical.org/leopardrock.jpg

Re: Carl Akeley’s fight to the death with a leopard (1923)

#12

Post by areoform »

I have vacillated on whether or not I should write this comment. I am writing this because most of the comments are focused on the man's prose and prowess.

I am on the leopard's side here. Leopards, and most members of the Felidae (cat) family, are sentient, and we hunted some members of this family to near extinction because of accounts like these. Accounts that glorified the "adventure" of going into their habitats, killing their prey, and then shooting them with gun powder and a metal slug.

This man wasn't a scientist. He was a thrill seeker. One who killed sentient beings for amusement and then donated the carcasses to a museum.

If he was a scientist, quietly observing the fauna, and taking notes, I would have had no objections to him killing the leopard in self defense. Instead, he encroached on a sentient being's habitat + territory with hostile intentions. And was attacked for it. I do not wish him harm, but I feel more for the leopard than I do for him.

-

If you doubt that these are animals capable of joy, I'd suggest watching this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWuFoPguAlE

Of course, they're still wild animals and you should stay away, but they are sentient and should be treated with care.

Re: Carl Akeley’s fight to the death with a leopard (1923)

#13

Post by technothrasher »

areoform wrote: post #12

I have vacillated on whether or not I should write this comment. I am writing this because most of the comments are focused on the man's prose and prowess. I am on the leopard's side here. Leopards, and most members of the Felidae (cat) family, are sentient, and we hunted some members of this family to near extinction because of accounts like these. Accounts that glorified the "adventure" of going into their habitats…

Victorian hunters in Africa were pretty brutal. But to be fair to Akeley, he actually had a change of heart near the end of his life after he moved further north to hunt gorillas, and was instrumental to creating Africa's first national park, in the DRC, to preserve and protect the gorillas.

Re: Carl Akeley’s fight to the death with a leopard (1923)

#14

Post by jmnicolas »

areoform wrote: post #12

I have vacillated on whether or not I should write this comment. I am writing this because most of the comments are focused on the man's prose and prowess. I am on the leopard's side here. Leopards, and most members of the Felidae (cat) family, are sentient, and we hunted some members of this family to near extinction because of accounts like these. Accounts that glorified the "adventure" of going into their habitats…

The sentient leopard wouldn't have such pity for you, you're just a meal.

While I don't condone free kills either, let's not idealize animals.

I wish I could find the article that dispelled myths about animals (where you among other things learn that dolphins and sea otters have rapists amongst their ranks).

Re: Carl Akeley’s fight to the death with a leopard (1923)

#15

Post by [deleted] »

areoform wrote: post #12

I have vacillated on whether or not I should write this comment. I am writing this because most of the comments are focused on the man's prose and prowess. I am on the leopard's side here. Leopards, and most members of the Felidae (cat) family, are sentient, and we hunted some members of this family to near extinction because of accounts like these. Accounts that glorified the "adventure" of going into their habitats…

[deleted]

Re: Carl Akeley’s fight to the death with a leopard (1923)

#16

Post by jmnicolas »

technothrasher wrote: post #11
LiquidPolymer wrote: post #3

Having been around wild leopards in Africa, and worked around nearly all the big cats - leopards scare me the most. A tiger or lion can be confused by unexpected behavior which can delay or slow an attack. Leopards are the most single-minded predator I've ever seen in action and the only equivalent I can think of is a great white shark. Leopards are relentless, ferocious and deadly. I suspect Mr. Ackley's encounter w…

I've very much enjoyed watching lions and cheetahs do their thing in Africa, but only the leopards fill me with awe whenever I see them. They are truly magnificent and fascinating creatures. Here's my favorite shot I took of a gorgeous young lady just outside the Sabi Sands game reserve in South Africa: http://www.skeptical.org/leopardrock.jpg

Superb photo! Can you tell it's a lady from this photo or you had a glimpse of her from behind?

Re: Carl Akeley’s fight to the death with a leopard (1923)

#17

Post by technothrasher »

jmnicolas wrote: post #16
technothrasher wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've very much enjoyed watching lions and cheetahs do their thing in Africa, but only the leopards fill me with awe whenever I see them. They are truly magnificent and fascinating creatures. Here's my favorite shot I took of a gorgeous young lady just outside the Sabi Sands game reserve in South Africa: http://www.skeptical.org/leopardrock.jpg

Superb photo! Can you tell it's a lady from this photo or you had a glimpse of her from behind?

No, she was well known to the guides I was with, and we'd been following her for a while before she got up on that termite mound. I was lucky to get that shot, as she was being harassed by a hyena who didn't want her around, and she only sat down there for about a minute.

Re: Carl Akeley’s fight to the death with a leopard (1923)

#18

Post by jjtheblunt »

areoform wrote: post #12

I have vacillated on whether or not I should write this comment. I am writing this because most of the comments are focused on the man's prose and prowess. I am on the leopard's side here. Leopards, and most members of the Felidae (cat) family, are sentient, and we hunted some members of this family to near extinction because of accounts like these. Accounts that glorified the "adventure" of going into their habitats…

I have a conjecture I can not prove, built up over decades: we are all wild animals, in personally varying degrees, regardless of species (for those normally labelled as such).

One example of this is people living with pet tigers and lions, who behave exactly like domestic sized felines, but of course are bigger than humans so can actually hurt you when wrestling in play, etc. . People kill other people out of fear, a wild animal sort of thing itself.

Anyway, I just have not thought of a counterexample to the assertion that wild animals extend into the realm of things called domestic.

Re: Carl Akeley’s fight to the death with a leopard (1923)

#19

Post by mauvehaus »

jmnicolas wrote: post #14
areoform wrote: post #12

I have vacillated on whether or not I should write this comment. I am writing this because most of the comments are focused on the man's prose and prowess. I am on the leopard's side here. Leopards, and most members of the Felidae (cat) family, are sentient, and we hunted some members of this family to near extinction because of accounts like these. Accounts that glorified the "adventure" of going into their habitats…

The sentient leopard wouldn't have such pity for you, you're just a meal. While I don't condone free kills either, let's not idealize animals. I wish I could find the article that dispelled myths about animals (where you among other things learn that dolphins and sea otters have rapists amongst their ranks).

Sure, but as the species that claims greater intelligence, surely the onus is on the humans to not put themselves into a situation where they become a meal. Blindly shooting at an unknown target doesn't exactly suggest taking this responsibility seriously. I'd have been a-ok with the leopard making a meal of him for his foolishness.

If we take it as a given that animals have no morality, or at least different morality than our own, surely it's incumbent upon us to act accordingly among them.

Incidentally: while backpacking on Isle Royale, which has a robust wolf/moose ecosystem I asked a ranger why the wolves didn't just eat the plentiful, slow, weak humans instead of the moose. The ranger said humans aren't tasty to wolves.

Re: Carl Akeley’s fight to the death with a leopard (1923)

#20

Post by awb »

jmnicolas wrote: post #14
areoform wrote: post #12

I have vacillated on whether or not I should write this comment. I am writing this because most of the comments are focused on the man's prose and prowess. I am on the leopard's side here. Leopards, and most members of the Felidae (cat) family, are sentient, and we hunted some members of this family to near extinction because of accounts like these. Accounts that glorified the "adventure" of going into their habitats…

The sentient leopard wouldn't have such pity for you, you're just a meal. While I don't condone free kills either, let's not idealize animals. I wish I could find the article that dispelled myths about animals (where you among other things learn that dolphins and sea otters have rapists amongst their ranks).

> you're just a meal

Some animals attack out of defense as well, as in this case.

> let's not idealize animals

Acknowledging that most animals have consciousness, emotions, language, etc. isn't idealizing them, it's just an accurate observation. This is opposed to treating animals like trophies or non-sentient creatures.

> where you among other things learn that dolphins and sea otters have rapists amongst their ranks

As do humans.

No one said animals are better or more virtuous than humans. OP's point is that it's not OK to go into nature and randomly shoot at animals for fun, entertainment, etc.

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