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The Dubai Debt Trap

economist.com

301–310 of 356 posts

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#301
post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

For those who did not bother to read the article, it is about fraud during the financial crisis. I feel sad for Cornelius and wish he is set free. As a resident of Dubai for 30 years, I am always curious to learn things that I may have missed about 'my city', yet this article is misleading in many ways, its few first paragraph where it states that Ryan Cornelius 'thought the authorities had simply made a mistake;' Re…

The problem isn't that Cornelius went to prison. The problem is the way he is being treated, whether or not he is guilty is entirely irrelevant.

> The Economist used to be a decent publication with great journalism, unfortunately that is not the case anymore.

How come? Are you saying that they left something out or twisted the facts?

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"he was convicted in british courts" is exactly the wrong kind of reasoning here. Sure, this guy probably did it, but for every person who probably did it there are likely 9 or even 99 innocent people who spend months rotting in jail and being abused - or in the US, dying in jail - awaiting a fair trial because we tolerate violations of law and mistreatment of prisoners. "he would have been murdered rather than impri…

To be clear, I don't think this is okay. My comment is more pointing out that the article goes out of its way to act as if he's innocent only to later reveal he was actually convicted of the crime by a more trustworthy entity. It's a criticism of the article, not a justification of the treatment of this individual. It's clear that debtor's prison, en total, is unethical. It's also illegal in most of the Western world…

The article doesn't make a huge point of his guilt because it simply isn't relevant.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#303
Garbage journalism. Starts off by implying he's innocent, half way down you learn he did in fact defraud the bank to the tune of $350 million of a $500M loan, and done so with fabricated invoices. This was not a misunderstanding.

Why should I care if a spoiled white colonialist from Africa, already obscenely wealthy, spends his life in jail for defrauding a bank for $350M? Imho, this was actually justice served to a white collar criminal, for once.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#304
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I know lots of people who would have been stuck in extremely low social mobility situations in their home countries, and who only managed to go up in social class by moving to one of these Middle Eastern countries, and earning good money and by doing honest work - the last of which wasn't an option in their own countries. Honestly, I think this is a really difficult topic to discuss on the internet. It's too easy to…

Your example is a good one. However, I must emphasize that there are a lot of examples that are not in the extremes. People who are not as "low" as laborers but, say, school teachers. Their pay can be well enough that it makes a major improvement to the opportunities their kids have as opposed to had they been a school teacher in their own countries. It's hard to get a visa to move to the US and teach at an elementar…

Agreed. My comment was mostly because most of the articles people see about work issues in the Middle East are always about the labor class. At least in the West, you don't really see articles about teachers, shopkeepers, business people, and basically countless other professions where people can make a much better living in the Middle East in comparison to their home countries. Not to mention, it can be much safer.

It wasn't even two decades ago that even professions like doctors, dentists, IT did better economically in the Middle East for many people in comparison to their home countries. Engineers making good money in India/China and not working for a consulting company is a pretty recent thing. A lot of that is changing now as other Asian countries are developing economically, but it's easy to forget how things were even a decade ago.

>It's hard to get a visa to move to the US and teach at an elementary school.

Plus, at least the visa situation in the Middle East is clear. It's not that difficult to get a work visa if you have a job offer and you can work as long as you have a job or until you retire. The visa situation in the US is...no comment :)

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re incorrect as to the US, and I suspect as to Japan as well. Lots of criminals in America plead guilty, but that doesn’t mean that there’s no “external proof” of guilt. Cops are lazy and criminals are dumb. So what you end up with in nearly all cases is that cops make arrests in easy cases with tons of evidence. Confronted with the video tape, cell phone records, etc., the accused then pleads guilty. Rarely do y…

On this topic, this literally happened this week in New Jersey: https://twitter.com/closequarters92/status/14936736252784558...

What does this have to do with the evidence supporting criminal convictions?

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#306
post #246
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the thought, but I’d raise the same thing I mentioned in the other comment, that I’m here for humanitarian reasons rather than simply trying to “strike it rich” or something. My ethics and morals are incredibly important to me and you suggesting that just by merely being present in this country without knowing why is in someway selling myself out is presumptuous. I’ll add something else, as someone who h…

You know, I do owe you an apology. That was snarky as hell and I don't know your situation. Sorry.

not OP but I respect the apology

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Good way to grossly simplify the Iraqi civil war and ROE! I'd agree with "IIRC the USA invaded Iraq, which set of a decades-long civil war fueled by sectarian violence and incompetent application of various nation building and counter-insurgency strategies." But that's a less clean catchphrase.

The US dropped cluster bombs in civilian areas and blew the legs off kids. Sure, have your conversation about rules of engagement.

So, what you said. And if this was the first time this had happened, with every previous war being exemplary precision execution, then wow, this would just be a terrible tragedy. But it's not. Its modus operandi.

Iraqis, Libyans, Syrians, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc. As I said, "We'll come to you!"

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#308
> Some prisoners don’t even have pillows

LOL. I just did eight years at two facilities in the USA, neither of which allowed pillows. Try going to sleep tonight without a pillow. It sucks.

> The temperature in the cells is kept low.

This is par for the course in most jails and prisons. They make an excuse that it "keeps down germs".

> The air conditioning runs noisily and ceaselessly

Same

> Strip lights are left on 24 hours a day.

I had five years in cells with 24/7 lighting

> Hanging up anything to dim the brightness is treated as a punishable offence

Same in every jail and prison

> Taps drip.

Is there a prison well-maintain enough anywhere in the world where all the mechanicals actually work?!

> There is no toilet paper, so prisoners have to use a hose.

It is common in the Middle-East to wash your undercarriage with a showerhead.

> Occasionally, they are allowed to exercise for 45 minutes in a small, concrete yard.

Better than I had in the USA. I never saw the sun for eight years.

> In Dubai, inmates have to buy everything, including soap and detergent for cleaning the cells, as well as newspapers and phone calls.

They were allowed newspapers.. this is better than any place I was at which had total news blackouts.

> A small range of food items can be bought from outside the prison, by placing an order through the police kitchen. Cornelius buys a hamburger twice a week and pizza on Thursdays.

Nice! Most jails don't have hot food ordering, but it is becoming more common as there is good money to be made.

> Martin Lonergan, who spent nine months in the cell next to Cornelius’s in 2019-20 after getting caught up in a separate business dispute, carried out an informal survey among the prisoners. He reckons inmates lucky enough to have money on their cards spend an average of around 150 dirhams a week, or $40.

Cheap! The jails I was in.. if you didn't max out the $100 a week limit you were considered a loser. The goal for most people was to find one of these "losers" and buy his remaining credit off him (for say, a 25% surcharge) so you could buy $200-300 of commissary a week.

> Prisoners report that they rarely see the jailers. Every night at 9pm cells are locked and the phone line to the guards is switched off. If an inmate has a problem, there’s no way to get assistance. Sometimes prisoners can be heard screaming for help.

Same in the Cook County Jail in Illinois. If you have a heart attack at night, good luck! They'll find your body the next day.

> Medical care is almost non-existent: a single doctor covers all the inmates. Under the rota system prisoners may be given an appointment six months down the line.

This seems quick for jail medical care.

> That didn’t stop covid from running rampant through the overcrowded prison. His block is reportedly being used as a dumping ground for anyone who might be infected.

LOL. When I was in the CCJ, the NYT declared it to be the epicenter of the entire COVID pandemic.

> A person close to Cornelius says he accepts that he “made mistakes”, but that he’d been assured by cch that he could borrow money to invest if he submitted “certain invoices in a certain way”. Though Cornelius never dealt directly with dib, he has said he was led to understand that the bank was “supportive” of this chicanery.

Yeah, if you don't have it in writing, you're on the hook. My personal manager at PayPal was very supportive of me running a private TV torrent tracker, but if I'd had to subpoena him to court I'm sure he would have told a very different story :D

> In most Western countries, debt is considered a civil matter. Charles Dickens’s father was sent to a debtors’ prison and Dickens’s depictions of these prisons’ horrific conditions in his novels bolstered a campaign that led to their eventual abolition in Britain in 1869. The uae, by contrast, still treats debt as a crime.

It is still a crime in the USA. I met many people in jail incarcerated for debt. Legally you can't be incarcerated for debt, but there is a way around it that courts in the USA use. If the judge orders you to repay a sum of money and you fail to do it on time, then you have disobeyed the judge and committed contempt of court and are jailed for that, not the debt. Easy!

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do know who is my enemy and who is not. I have lots of friends coming from these countries. Been there with them. They do not speak like you. The enemies are roughly Salafia and Ikhwan. They are the ones with the hateful retoric. And they have a huge following.

> They do not speak like you. Does this automatically make what I said incorrect?

Yes it does. Not all critics of the situation of women in the so-called Arab Muslim world are uninformed.

This bad situation also predates western imperialism or Pax Americana.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#310
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>no one who moves to Dubai for a middle class job will ever experience any of the things you’ve listed Sorry, but that is just not true. You're always one mistake away from losing all your rights and going through a miserable experience. This could happen to anyone who is basically not royalty or extremely high ranks, I've experienced it first-hand. Everyone knows this, so people are quite afraid to mess up, at any l…

How does it compare to Singapore in that aspect? I get the same impression there when people talk about how it all works really well until it doesn't.

Singaporean here. If we're comparing aspects from the article, Singapore has a common law legal system like the US and UK, and debt isn't considered a crime.

It's common knowledge that the Singapore government has ownership stakes in most successful companies operating here via our sovereign wealth fund Temasek Holdings, but I've never heard of private organisations being considered governmental bodies (like DIB in the article).

Our prisons aren't pleasant either [1], but I'm quite certain inmates get healthcare when necessary.

All in, I don't think anyone here would experience a lack of due process, or the same helplessness obtaining legal representation, like what I felt reading the article.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJqRPycWUDg

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