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The Dubai Debt Trap

economist.com

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Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#261

Post by Aspos »

feupan wrote: post #191
Aspos wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those horror stories are mostly propaganda amplified in echo chambers of people who have never been to Dubai. Take this "slavery" nonsense for example. There is literally no difference between migration regime of a low-skilled worker and a highly-paid "expat". Rules are the same and they are way softer than, for example, H1B. Millions used to be spent on smearing Dubai, so we will be hearing echoes of those "horror s…

> There is literally no difference between migration regime of a low-skilled worker and a highly-paid "expat". You can’t be serious. Nobody is withholding an expat’s passport while they live in boxes with 16 other people and working for months on end. You’re making ridiculous comparisons and it makes me dubious of your intent here.

Nobody is withholding any passports. It is illegal and employer will be fined if gov finds out. Dubai gov advertises hotlines where employees can anonymously report such things. Moreover, employer is mandated to pay for the return ticket if employee resigns and decides to leave. Employer simply can't get a visa unless they deposit the cash with gov.

Putting 16 people in the same "box" is also illegal and, frankly, I've never seen laborers being treated like that. I think you are making this up or referring to an outlier case.

Laborers have two options: take care of their own housing or live in a employer-provided accommodation. Bankers, obviously, choose the former, taxi drivers choose the latter. There is no law that says taxi drivers should be treated differently than bankers.

It helps if one imagines Dubai as a cruise ship: expats are treated as a typical cruise ship crew. Some sleep in bunks next to the engines, some pay to live in better rooms on higher decks, but the approach in general is the same. Each member of the crew is there temporarily and they know it. They are expected to do their job and leave once its over.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#262

Post by andjd »

Teracotage wrote: post #187
JohnGB wrote: post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

For those who did not bother to read the article, it is about fraud during the financial crisis. I feel sad for Cornelius and wish he is set free. As a resident of Dubai for 30 years, I am always curious to learn things that I may have missed about 'my city', yet this article is misleading in many ways, its few first paragraph where it states that Ryan Cornelius 'thought the authorities had simply made a mistake;' Re…

If you read long enough, they start a section with "Cornelius undoubtedly committed fraud." I think the bigger takeaway is the lack of the rule of law. The crime he committed only carried a three-year jail term. This was later increased by trumping up the charge to 'fraud against the government' (because the government owned a minority stake in the bank) and then he was held in prison even beyond that term because he still owed payment on the loan despite the bank repossessing collateral worth several times the loan amount.

One of my additional takeaways here though is the failure of the British Foreign Office. Part of the service I expect my embassy to provide is assistance if I were to get caught up in a foreign legal system, even if this is only to connect me with a local lawyer. I also expect them to exert diplomatic pressure if the local courts or prosecutors are applying a double standard to foreigners.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#263

Post by pradn »

mrwnmonm wrote: post #257
pradn wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to Egypt a few months ago and was met with incredibly warm people, with perhaps even an excess of hospitality. Yes, you do get charged extra for being a tourist at the tourist spots. But that's only a small part of the country. That said, I am Indian and was met as an Egyptian most of the time (people would start speaking to me in Arabic 70% of the time), so I had the benefit of fitting in well. The delicious…

I am an Egyptian, thanks for your comment. The last time I visited Dahab (a very simple yet beautiful place in Sinai, not sure if you know it or not), I saw an Arab man, from his accent it was clear he is not an Egyptian, maybe he is a Saudi or Kuwaiti, he was having a discussion with the Hotel's reception about being charged more just because he is not an Egyptian. This is just something stupid they do to get more m…

I've heard wonderful things about Dahab! I'd love to visit if I get to go back to Egypt.

I didn't mind the overcharging too much when it was obvious. Like it was funny to me and the taxi driver that he was charging too much, and we had a laugh about it. Coming from the USA, the flight cost far dominated any expenses from when I was in Egypt. The one time it did feel bad was when the tour guide I hired, who seemed to be on my side, let me be overcharged by someone he had a prior arrangement with. But alas he was so knowledgable.

I realize all this is only a small part of Egypt and it's not fair to judge a whole country by a few bad apples.

One of my new Egyptian friends wanted me to try so many types of food that he sent me home with two extra bags of stuff. That's excessive hospitality :)

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#264

Post by webmobdev »

JohnGB wrote: post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

> I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage

That's more true of Saudi Arabia, than UAE. The first thing you are told to tell your female relatives is to never ever travel alone outside in SA, anywhere, as the police can and do use that as an excuse to arrest them and molest or rape them. The reverse also happens - some rich womenfolk often seduce their male servants / drivers to have sex with them. If the guy wants to stop, some of the women blackmail them with threat to report them for attempted rape. (Source: one of my distant relative who worked as a driver in a Saudi household).

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#265

Post by webmobdev »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #47
JohnGB wrote: post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

After some bad experiences I will never visit an Arab country again. They'll have to do something against the sexism, constant heckling and the bad state of law before I even think about going there. Or they can do whatever they want, they don't have to change just for me. I'm 6 ft 6 and I have a blonde wife who's just a bit smaller. Even though we behaved very polite and dressed like locals it was like we had a big…

It's probably because you dressed as local.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#266

Post by dandare »

Dictatorships are not holiday destinations or places for business - and this applies tenfold to UAE and Saudi Arabia. There has been plenty of warning over the years, enter these countries at your own risk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sampson_(author)#Arres...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Gali

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#267

Post by [deleted] »

victor106 wrote: post #199

India has a similar law. You will be detained from leaving the country even if you are not the principal borrower and you've just stood as a guarantor for someone else's loan the bank can issue a lookout circular without even approaching a court. One of my offshore resources was arrested at the airport[1] even though he was not the pricipal borrower of the loan. The funny thing about these incidents is that, all thes…

[deleted]

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#268

Post by shepherdjerred »

pradn wrote: post #193
spiderfarmer wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After some bad experiences I will never visit an Arab country again. They'll have to do something against the sexism, constant heckling and the bad state of law before I even think about going there. Or they can do whatever they want, they don't have to change just for me. I'm 6 ft 6 and I have a blonde wife who's just a bit smaller. Even though we behaved very polite and dressed like locals it was like we had a big…

I went to Egypt a few months ago and was met with incredibly warm people, with perhaps even an excess of hospitality. Yes, you do get charged extra for being a tourist at the tourist spots. But that's only a small part of the country. That said, I am Indian and was met as an Egyptian most of the time (people would start speaking to me in Arabic 70% of the time), so I had the benefit of fitting in well. The delicious…

That is so good to hear! I've always wanted to go to Egypt, but it almost seems a bit scary since I'm so unfamiliar with that part of the world aside from all of the negative bits you hear on the news, e.g. civil unrest.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#269

Post by ghshephard »

Teracotage wrote: post #240
Geekette wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is less about fraud and more about the existence of draconian laws (imprisoning debtors) in a place that professes modernity and manipulation of or utter disregard for said laws by those in high places. All parties including the main lender knew about the irregularities you cited, yet they agreed to restructure the loan. The man's fraud charge normally carries a 3 year sentence but he's still in prison 13 years la…

Imprisoning debtors has been a request from British banks to operate in the country. Yes, banks wield vast powers but when you are playing with billions you gotta pay to play .I lost my life savings in that crisis, for no reason at all on my part. It was the greed of banks and many fraudsters . I was rightfully imprisoned in Dubai, which is very rare to admit, I was drunk on a public beach and kissing my girlfriend i…

" I was drunk on a public beach and kissing my girlfriend in Ramadan,"

Oh man, the trifecta - Alchohol, Ramadan+Beach + With a woman not a member of your family. In the three+ months I was in Dubai in 2015, I was nervous even shaking hands in a business meeting with a woman (and obviously would never do so with a local woman, couldn't even be in an elevator alone with one) - was instructed very strictly about appropriate behavior during Ramadan (don't expose your knees on the beach).

Counter Intuitively, I've never been in any city in the world where the hotel lounges were so aggressive in serving alcohol. I ended up drinking more alcohol in Dubai in a month than I would the rest of the year in other cities around the world.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#270

Post by dandare »

webmobdev wrote: post #264
JohnGB wrote: post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

> I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage That's more true of Saudi Arabia, than UAE. The first thing you are told to tell your female relatives is to never ever travel alone outside in SA, anywhere, as the police can and do use that as an excuse to arrest them and molest or rape them. The reverse also happens - some rich womenfolk often…

> That's more true of Saudi Arabia, than UAE

It was in UEA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Gali

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