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The Dubai Debt Trap

economist.com

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Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#221

Post by pcardoso »

rsj_hn wrote: post #188
pcardoso wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must say I visited Jordan with my wife in 2020, right before the pandemic and I had a wonderful experience. No heckling, we felt safe all the time, people didn't rip us off, and when looked at we felt it was more curiosity than anything else. We loved it. I'm learning arabic on Duolingo now because I got curious about the script. Of course, YMMV.

Did you see Petra? How was it?

Yes, it was great. We were free to roam around inside and saw most of it, up to the monastery, and then up to another viewpoint ("the best view in the world"). I think we walked about 20km that day. It was worth it.

We bought tickets for the Petra by night show, and while it was good, we felt it was a bit expensive for what it was.

The martian landscapes of Wadi Rum were equally as good.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#222

Post by BeetleB »

feupan wrote: post #191
Aspos wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those horror stories are mostly propaganda amplified in echo chambers of people who have never been to Dubai. Take this "slavery" nonsense for example. There is literally no difference between migration regime of a low-skilled worker and a highly-paid "expat". Rules are the same and they are way softer than, for example, H1B. Millions used to be spent on smearing Dubai, so we will be hearing echoes of those "horror s…

> There is literally no difference between migration regime of a low-skilled worker and a highly-paid "expat". You can’t be serious. Nobody is withholding an expat’s passport while they live in boxes with 16 other people and working for months on end. You’re making ridiculous comparisons and it makes me dubious of your intent here.

He's merely saying the rules are the same. The higher skilled worker can afford not to live with 16 other people. I don't know about the passport, but in countries like Saudi Arabia: Yes - they do/did take your passport away, regardless of whether you're a lowly worker or an executive at a company. There's a process you have to go through to get the passport back so you can travel.

Even if they let you keep your passport, you still need an exit visa to leave. I've known wealthy upper class people to get stuck in the country for a bit because they had a dispute with their employer and the latter then refused to sign the paperwork so he could get an exit visa.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#223

Post by feupan »

LightG wrote: post #203
feupan wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a weird comment full of assumptions and hatred. Nothing in the parent comment warrants what you said. What happens in practice is that being white in poorer countries makes you stand out and sometimes this comes with negative feelings of being unwanted there. This is just a fact being told and it doesn’t justify a “you guys and your politics” comment. It’s just to point out, perhaps, that some places are more we…

From my point of view, I could say "What a weird comment full of assumptions and hatred" about the parent comment. I've travelled back and forth from Dubai for business and other emirates and countries and never had that experience. When you say "fact being told", you actually mean "anecdote being shared". Nothing from my experience indicates an automatic feeling of hatred towards me and my wife when going to these c…

> Maybe it's time you engaged with the cultures. I'm sure it'll be "No thanks". Surprise me.

I’ll surprise you: English is not my first language, I haven’t been in my home country since 2015, I speak 3 languages fluently, I’m currently living in Indonesia and can already speak my fourth language (although not well). I lived 3-15 months each in more than 10 countries.

You got the wrong person. I know what I’m talking about because I’ve lived it.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#225

Post by aceofspades19 »

logicchains wrote: post #124
delecti wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing slavery to vaccines is simply absurd. Slavery is one of the worst things humans do to each other, and vaccines are one of our greatest accomplishments as a species. You can go through life as a walking petri dish for dark age plagues if you'd like, but I think it's good for society to keep you away from the rest of us.

>Comparing slavery to vaccines is simply absurd Comparing the covid vaccines to previous vaccines is simply absurd. You know what other vaccines do? THEY PREVENT YOU FROM GETTING THE DISEASE! The covid vaccines do not do this! Even if you get the covid vaccine, you can still get covid and you can still die! And not only that, the covid vaccines are at least an order of magnitude more dangerous than previous vaccines…

> Comparing the covid vaccines to previous vaccines is simply absurd. You know what other vaccines do? THEY PREVENT YOU FROM GETTING THE DISEASE! The covid vaccines do not do this! Even if you get the covid vaccine, you can still get covid and you can still die!

Name one vaccine ever made that has a 100% prevention rate. I've never seen anyone claim this for any vaccine before covid.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#226

Post by aorth »

jacquesm wrote: post #96

You couldn't pay me to go there. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-har...

Me neither:

- https://www.amazon.com/Escape-Dubai-Herve-Jaubert/dp/0929915... - https://historyofyesterday.com/5-disturbing-facts-about-prin... - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/11/woman-arrest... - https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/10/06/pegasus...

And on and on...

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#227

Post by Geekette »

Teracotage wrote: post #187
JohnGB wrote: post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

For those who did not bother to read the article, it is about fraud during the financial crisis. I feel sad for Cornelius and wish he is set free. As a resident of Dubai for 30 years, I am always curious to learn things that I may have missed about 'my city', yet this article is misleading in many ways, its few first paragraph where it states that Ryan Cornelius 'thought the authorities had simply made a mistake;' Re…

It is less about fraud and more about the existence of draconian laws (imprisoning debtors) in a place that professes modernity and manipulation of or utter disregard for said laws by those in high places. All parties including the main lender knew about the irregularities you cited, yet they agreed to restructure the loan. The man's fraud charge normally carries a 3 year sentence but he's still in prison 13 years later because his sentence got extended based on the bank's request.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#228

Post by mrwnmonm »

feupan wrote: post #216
mrwnmonm wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arabs are mixed-race my friend, some of them are white. Your comment reflects your lack of knowledge about us. I don't hate western people for being western or white. I respect a lot of them and would love to learn from them. Some places are more welcoming because people have more knowledge about dealing with foreigners and know more about their culture. So it comes back to education and being open to other cultures…

Hilarious. You continue making assumptions about everyone here. You don’t know my media and you don’t know what I know. You assume I’m talking about Arab countries while I just mentioned “poorer countries”, as if you’re the only one around. I’m talking out of my own experience in Africa, Asia and South America. I don’t go flashing out money around and I know exactly how I’m seen and how I’m treated in every place I’v…

In my first comment I said "Are you western?", so the rest of the comment goes if he/she was western. And the thread is about Arab countries, so replying while assuming you are talking about Arab countries is also valid.

I am not sure who is full of hatered here, telling me to go f myself while I am trying to say my understanding about a place I know more than you do.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#229

Post by conductr »

justinroberts22 wrote: post #209
JohnGB wrote: post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

So you don't recommend even for just travelling? It is a safe country for tourists?

I've been as a tourist and had expat family live there for ~15 years. It's safe until it's not. Any unexpected confrontation or interaction with the officials can go sideways quick because they will fabricate whatever story fits their preferred reality and subject you to the consequences of it. The driving example is the most easily discussed because it's common to witness the locals simply not following laws or basic safety. This is like rich guy in a lambo doing 3x the speed limit and deciding to drive the wrong direction and does quick and unexpected U turn causing an accident. You see this stuff regularly. But, he's not at fault because of his Emirati status and probably some level of caste system within that I don't fully understand. He could literally wreck his car, cause a fatality in the process, and just walk away from it with limited questioning from officials. The officials will find a way to explain it that does not cause bad PR for an Emirati.

It's best to have a handler. We had a guy that was a fixer. He worked for my family's employer technically and was available to all the expat employees in Dubai, but he was like the well connected guy you have on speed dial and call immediately if anything occurs. He'd swoop in and money would change hands and/or a phone call would be made and everything would magically be solved. I think in the 15 years they ended up calling him about 10 times and they're all insane stories over beers. Luckily, the few weeks I was there things were pretty quiet.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#230

Post by mrwnmonm »

feupan wrote: post #223
LightG wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my point of view, I could say "What a weird comment full of assumptions and hatred" about the parent comment. I've travelled back and forth from Dubai for business and other emirates and countries and never had that experience. When you say "fact being told", you actually mean "anecdote being shared". Nothing from my experience indicates an automatic feeling of hatred towards me and my wife when going to these c…

> Maybe it's time you engaged with the cultures. I'm sure it'll be "No thanks". Surprise me. I’ll surprise you: English is not my first language, I haven’t been in my home country since 2015, I speak 3 languages fluently, I’m currently living in Indonesia and can already speak my fourth language (although not well). I lived 3-15 months each in more than 10 countries. You got the wrong person. I know what I’m talking…

Wow, bulling people all over the place.

> I lived 3-15 months each in more than 10 countries.

Is that supposed to mean that you know those countries more than natives?

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