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The Dubai Debt Trap

economist.com

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Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#141

Post by josephcsible »

logicchains wrote: post #69
JohnGB wrote: post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

>There is no rule of law In San Francisco if someone walks into your shop and steals less than $950 worth of goods there's pretty much nothing you can do about it; is that rule of law?

San Francisco is definitely terrible right now, but even so, having people in jail who shouldn't be is way, way worse than having people out of jail who shouldn't be.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#142

Post by thematrixturtle »

laurent92 wrote: post #102
JohnGB wrote: post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

If you are afraid of the lack of rule of law, there are not many countries we need to avoid. Japan has a 99.995% of inculpation after their police interview. And that has to do with the fact that their interview can lawfully last for 22 days, renewable. You can’t even avoid USA: 95% of jailmates are there upon self-admission of guilt without external proof, ie. without objective proof besides self-incrimination.

Incorrect: Japan has a 99.95% conviction rate for cases that go to trial. This is partly achieved by lengthy pretrial detention determined to extract confessions out of people, but equally importantly by not prosecuting any cases that are less than watertight (read: the culprit has already confessed).

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#143

Post by tristor »

I don't think this justifies his treatment, but the article starts off by essentially saying this man did nothing wrong and was forced into signing a confession without a lawyer present in a language he can't understand. It's not until you get more than a third of the way into the article that they point out he was convicted in a civil case brought by the same complainant in British courts of committing financial fraud against the Dubai bank.

His treatment is unacceptable, the sentence is outrageous (and counterproductive), but fundamentally this is why you don't get into business with and especially don't defraud petty dictators in unstable regions of the world. If this had been in his place of birth, he would have been murdered rather than imprisoned, and I imagine he should be well aware of this given his upbringing and career history.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#144

Post by Aspos »

bitcharmer wrote: post #136
Aspos wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that is what I mean: some people divide the world to "civilized" and "barbaric" and anything that does not fit their world view must be barbaric of course.

That you're unable to perceive the difference doesn't mean it's non-existent. People who travel the world will tell you that there are differences in civilisation advancement and human rights between countries and regions. To claim otherwise is just denying facts.

No doubt. I've been to 114 countries out of ~200 and spent decades living in different parts of the world. My comment was about people crying "slavery" while not fully understanding what they are referring to, about people who call others "barbarians" because their laws are different from they got used to.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#145

Post by bitcharmer »

_hhkg wrote: post #64
brthsim wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who says "We certainly have a right to raise [...] (issues with) racism, human rights abuse, etc." and immediately follows with "That being said however", is automatically not entitled to an opinion. You're clearly biased and enfatuated with the richness of the country and easy access to slavery and are more than content of looking the other way.

I don’t think that’s fair. You don’t know why I’m here and calling me an entitled prick is laughable because of your base assumptions. Maybe I’m here for humanitarian reasons and am trying to improve the lives of many. I’m not infatuated by anything, I’m simply raising a nuanced opinion about a country that has many faults, but has some successes which are never acknowledged. And that’s fine. Just thought it might be…

No, it's entirely fair. You just refuse to appreciate the dissonance between the country that lets you live a comfy life and actual evil that happens there on daily basis.

There was so much media coverage about human rights violations and slavery you'd have to put in a lot of effort to not see it.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#146

Post by cryptolake »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #47
JohnGB wrote: post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

After some bad experiences I will never visit an Arab country again. They'll have to do something against the sexism, constant heckling and the bad state of law before I even think about going there. Or they can do whatever they want, they don't have to change just for me. I'm 6 ft 6 and I have a blonde wife who's just a bit smaller. Even though we behaved very polite and dressed like locals it was like we had a big…

As someone from an arab country i can say, this is true, sexual harassment is rampant and people see women more or less like an object than a human being.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#147

Post by thematrixturtle »

mbg721 wrote: post #67
moralestapia wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>no one who moves to Dubai for a middle class job will ever experience any of the things you’ve listed Sorry, but that is just not true. You're always one mistake away from losing all your rights and going through a miserable experience. This could happen to anyone who is basically not royalty or extremely high ranks, I've experienced it first-hand. Everyone knows this, so people are quite afraid to mess up, at any l…

How does it compare to Singapore in that aspect? I get the same impression there when people talk about how it all works really well until it doesn't.

Singapore operates by the rule of law (except rare edge cases like politics, which are unlikely to concern visitors). You are not going to land in jail unless you commit a crime, some of which you may disagree with, but which are nevertheless made extremely clear to all (heavy fines and potential expulsion for not wearing masks, death penalty for dealing drugs, etc).

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#148

Post by maccard »

ycombinete wrote: post #8
retube wrote: post #5

All I ever hear is horror stories about this place: environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot. I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.

Because almost no one who moves to Dubai for a middle class job will ever experience any of the things you’ve listed except for the heat. What they do experience is earning lots of tax-free money, and a vibrant city life. Obviously those negatives are all present but less of a threat than one might think from the outside. Perhaps that seems like too much of a risk to some people. But to others, who aren’t living in “…

Right, like no middle class person has ever been detained on landing for drinking... [0].

> less of a threat than one might think from the outside.

Until they're not. It's not like the "silly" laws in your country/state where you can duel on sundays and kill a man, these are applied grossly and unfairly to many people.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/10/woman-held-in-...

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#149

Post by [deleted] »

wnscooke wrote: post #130
_hhkg wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate the thought, but I’d raise the same thing I mentioned in the other comment, that I’m here for humanitarian reasons rather than simply trying to “strike it rich” or something. My ethics and morals are incredibly important to me and you suggesting that just by merely being present in this country without knowing why is in someway selling myself out is presumptuous. I’ll add something else, as someone who h…

I’m curious about your stated reason for being there. Dubai gives Humanitarian visas to foreigners? To work in its own country (which then means it’s admitting it needs help)? I guess the host company is Dubaian? With all sincerity, I’m curious.

[deleted]

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#150

Post by bitcharmer »

logicchains wrote: post #92
codechad wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wax poetically about UAE (mostly emotion, little fact), then remind the reader that it is an Islamic dictatorship. Why would any intelligent person ever set foot there? I'd lose over half of my current rights as it stands.

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