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The Dubai Debt Trap

economist.com

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Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#131

Post by apohn »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #104
apohn wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this as somebody who lived in one of those Middle Eastern countries for a good period of my life. I'm not a white person and at that time I didn't have a US/European passport, so I didn't lead an extra privalaged life there. Here's what you can hear about the USA. 1)Endless suburban sprawl, resulting in massive environmental destruction. Illegal immigrants heavily involved in the construction industry, leading…

I guess the issue for me is that there are places where people greatly exaggerate their claims, and there are places where those seemingly exaggerated claims are legitimate. Given that, I don't think I have ever read anything good about the UAE, either editorial or comments from expats. Maybe from insta influencers who wanted to pad their hollow "luxury life" existance.

>Given that, I don't think I have ever read anything good about the UAE

There are 10 million people living in the UAE, 90% of which are expats. Lots of them live comfortable lives in the sense that they do what most people do - get jobs, have kids, do their daily routine, meet their friends, and all that regular stuff. They live normal regular lives and find fulfillment in those things.

It's no different than anywhere else in the world. If you live in UAE you'll find plenty of positive stories.

One thing I always laugh about is that my parents (who live outside of the USA) will text me asking about housing prices in my area, bad weather (that happened in a different state), some protest downtown (that I didn't even hear about), riots from police brutality and if it affects me, etc. But nobody seems to know that my neighborhood had a pot-luck where all the kids were having fun and the parents got a chance to meet each other and get to know the new people in the community.

It's no different living outside of UAE and hearing about UAE.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#132

Post by WilTimSon »

_hhkg wrote: post #64
brthsim wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who says "We certainly have a right to raise [...] (issues with) racism, human rights abuse, etc." and immediately follows with "That being said however", is automatically not entitled to an opinion. You're clearly biased and enfatuated with the richness of the country and easy access to slavery and are more than content of looking the other way.

I don’t think that’s fair. You don’t know why I’m here and calling me an entitled prick is laughable because of your base assumptions. Maybe I’m here for humanitarian reasons and am trying to improve the lives of many. I’m not infatuated by anything, I’m simply raising a nuanced opinion about a country that has many faults, but has some successes which are never acknowledged. And that’s fine. Just thought it might be…

That's a lot of maybes. You said in your initial comment that you fight racism and slavery there every day, so... are you there on humanitarian reasons? Part of an NGO?

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#133

Post by baybal2 »

logicchains wrote: post #92
codechad wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wax poetically about UAE (mostly emotion, little fact), then remind the reader that it is an Islamic dictatorship. Why would any intelligent person ever set foot there? I'd lose over half of my current rights as it stands.

Quoted post unavailable.

You literally can't step into any public place here, and that may include a grocery store, without a proof of vaccination, and a recent PCR test.

PCR tests cost 50 AED, and you have to pass them in between weekly, to bi-weekly.

UAE has world's highest vaccination rate.

I classify that sentiment into the same loony bin as people who cry "there is no Democracy in USA!" and then run to China.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#134

Post by [deleted] »

ceejayoz wrote: post #126
logicchains wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-59845833 > The United Arab Emirates has announced that it will ban citizens who have not had three doses of a vaccine against Covid-19 from travelling abroad. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/uae-mandates-covid... > DUBAI, May 26 (Reuters) - The United Arab Emirates said vaccinations against COVID-19 will be mandatory for people attending all "live events" from June…

[deleted]

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#135

Post by CryptoPunk »

vianneychevalie wrote: post #80
logicchains wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is no rule of law In San Francisco if someone walks into your shop and steals less than $950 worth of goods there's pretty much nothing you can do about it; is that rule of law?

In the article, it's mentioned that people there are held in jail for decades for debts below $1000. That's the "debt trap" in the title. I'd argue that I'd rather let someone steal than let them rot in jail for such a long time, for such a low monetary value, be it from debt or from theft. I understand you may disagree, that's why we do politics. Additionally, which country has the best "rule of law", comparatively?…

>>I'd argue that I'd rather let someone steal than let them rot in jail for such a long time, for such a low monetary value, be it from debt or from theft.

There is a middle ground between these two extremes. Also, if you want to compare costs, you have to factor in the deterrence effect of the latter, which will translate to much less lost in theft, and in additional store security.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#136

Post by bitcharmer »

Aspos wrote: post #61
hgomersall wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, cultural relativism! Justifying barbaric behaviour since, well, the Barbarians.

Well, that is what I mean: some people divide the world to "civilized" and "barbaric" and anything that does not fit their world view must be barbaric of course.

That you're unable to perceive the difference doesn't mean it's non-existent. People who travel the world will tell you that there are differences in civilisation advancement and human rights between countries and regions. To claim otherwise is just denying facts.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#137

Post by bragr »

laurent92 wrote: post #102
JohnGB wrote: post #7

One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless. That's not even going into their de facto slaver…

If you are afraid of the lack of rule of law, there are not many countries we need to avoid. Japan has a 99.995% of inculpation after their police interview. And that has to do with the fact that their interview can lawfully last for 22 days, renewable. You can’t even avoid USA: 95% of jailmates are there upon self-admission of guilt without external proof, ie. without objective proof besides self-incrimination.

Japan has a very strong rule of law. It is just that the law is a bit medieval.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#138

Post by mbg721 »

logicchains wrote: post #81
mbg721 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it compare to Singapore in that aspect? I get the same impression there when people talk about how it all works really well until it doesn't.

Dubai's much more honest about what it is; an absolutely monarchy that doesn't pretend to be a democracy. As long as you don't piss off the king or the locals, you're pretty much free to mind your own business and do whatever you want, especially if you're indirectly contributing to the king's real estate portfolio/the city's development. Singapore on the other hand is run by hall monitor types who believe they shoul…

Fwiw, a high-school friend of mine had a t-shirt that said "Singapore: It's a Fine City!" and underneath, it listed various legal offenses (like gum-chewing) and their fines.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#139

Post by Scoundreller »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #128
Scoundreller wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lynx is the best reader for the economist.

Back in 2016, The Economist used to block access from lynx. You'd get an error like this (unless you spoofed the user agent to be something other than lynx): Error 403 You are banned from this site. Please contact via a different client configuration if you believe that this is a mistake. You are banned from this site. Please contact via a different client configuration if you believe that this is a mistake. Guru Med…

Tbh, I was probably running some clone like bobcat.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#140

Post by gruez »

dukeofdoom wrote: post #75

A few things I noticed on my trip to Dubai. 1. Almost all of the labour comes from India and Pakistan. The native population is very small. So Dubai is an international city really, and it can't stop being one. The upkeep of everything they built is extremely labour intensive. If the immigrants went away the city would disintegrate back into sand within a few years. 2. The amount of wealth concentrated in such a tiny…

>2. The amount of wealth concentrated in such a tiny spot, with no military to protect it, is probably not sustainable. Just judging by the amount of effort that went into protecting castles in Europe. This place will get raided eventually.

Isn't most of the wealth in stuff like real estate and finance? Those are pretty hard to raid with an army.

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