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The Dubai Debt Trap

economist.com

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Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#51

Post by modriano »

morelisp wrote: post #18
brk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been to Dubai, and other parts of the UAE, a few times. It can be enjoyable for short durations, but I am not sure I'd want to live there long term. I am not saying the things you mentioned do not happen, but they're not as overly apparent as they are in some other parts of the Middle East, or China. The heat though, yeah, that's a thing. When you have air conditioned bus stops, it's a different level.

Of course it’s enjoyable for brief tourist/business visits, you’ve got literal slaves attending to you.

What's enjoyable about having literal slaves attending to you? I can't imagine literal slaves give off a pleasant vibe.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#52

Post by refurb »

_hhkg wrote: post #25

As a Bay Area native who moved to Abu Dhabi / Dubai roughly four years ago, I have a lot of issues with the way the UAE is portrayed across sites like Hacker News and Reddit. A lot of them are in the comments for this story, focusing on all the negatives of the country, structural racism, human rights abuse, etc and we certainly have a right to raise these things (of which I actively fight against here every day). Th…

I upvoted you because it’s easy to shit on countries.

Sure, Dubai may not reach the level Western democracies have, but they also didn’t start at the same point as well. That doesn’t excuse the shortcomings, but maybe explains them.

Western democracies in Europe and North America didn’t spring up overnight. You’re looking at 800+ years of developing a broadly accepted set of human rights.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#53

Post by whywhywhywhy »

_hhkg wrote: post #25

As a Bay Area native who moved to Abu Dhabi / Dubai roughly four years ago, I have a lot of issues with the way the UAE is portrayed across sites like Hacker News and Reddit. A lot of them are in the comments for this story, focusing on all the negatives of the country, structural racism, human rights abuse, etc and we certainly have a right to raise these things (of which I actively fight against here every day). Th…

Funny how what would be extremely backward and illegal beliefs in the west just become "complicated" once huge amounts of money are involved.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#54

Post by CJefferson »

brthsim wrote: post #39
_hhkg wrote: post #25

As a Bay Area native who moved to Abu Dhabi / Dubai roughly four years ago, I have a lot of issues with the way the UAE is portrayed across sites like Hacker News and Reddit. A lot of them are in the comments for this story, focusing on all the negatives of the country, structural racism, human rights abuse, etc and we certainly have a right to raise these things (of which I actively fight against here every day). Th…

Anyone who says "We certainly have a right to raise [...] (issues with) racism, human rights abuse, etc." and immediately follows with "That being said however", is automatically not entitled to an opinion. You're clearly biased and enfatuated with the richness of the country and easy access to slavery and are more than content of looking the other way.

Does the same apply to America? Plenty of racism, people shot in their homes by police, Guantanamo Bay still open.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#55

Post by bradleyjg »

Shaibani’s past calls into question Dubai’s claim to be run by the rule of law. He was involved in two of the most notorious episodes in Dubai’s recent history: the kidnappings of the emir’s daughters, Shamsa and Latifa. In August 2000, Shamsa was abducted from the streets of Cambridge, England, not far from the sheikh’s estate in Newmarket. She was drugged and taken to Dubai against her will. During a dispute between the ruler of Dubai and his estranged wife, the English High Court determined in December 2019 that Shaibani was “closely involved” in the “operation to remove” her and, indeed, that he was present when she was seized. She hasn’t been seen in public since.

The UK must be addicted to despot money because these things keep on happening and the diplomatic reactions seem non existent.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#56

Post by [deleted] »

ycombinete wrote: post #8
retube wrote: post #5

All I ever hear is horror stories about this place: environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot. I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.

Because almost no one who moves to Dubai for a middle class job will ever experience any of the things you’ve listed except for the heat. What they do experience is earning lots of tax-free money, and a vibrant city life. Obviously those negatives are all present but less of a threat than one might think from the outside. Perhaps that seems like too much of a risk to some people. But to others, who aren’t living in “…

[deleted]

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#57

Post by moralestapia »

ycombinete wrote: post #8
retube wrote: post #5

All I ever hear is horror stories about this place: environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot. I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.

Because almost no one who moves to Dubai for a middle class job will ever experience any of the things you’ve listed except for the heat. What they do experience is earning lots of tax-free money, and a vibrant city life. Obviously those negatives are all present but less of a threat than one might think from the outside. Perhaps that seems like too much of a risk to some people. But to others, who aren’t living in “…

>no one who moves to Dubai for a middle class job will ever experience any of the things you’ve listed

Sorry, but that is just not true. You're always one mistake away from losing all your rights and going through a miserable experience. This could happen to anyone who is basically not royalty or extremely high ranks, I've experienced it first-hand.

Everyone knows this, so people are quite afraid to mess up, at any level. Ask any foreigner who has lived there (not just visited) for a while.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#58

Post by hackyhacky »

alistairSH wrote: post #42
zivkovicp wrote: post #11

I can't say I'm surprised, but I can't help but feel he would have been much better off if he wasn't so rich. I wouldn't be surprised if they kept him locked up for life to ensure there is no possibility for anyone to contest the property seizures. Corruption at its finest.

He admits he committed fraud (using DIB funds for the Plantation on a project in Pakistan), so how is this corruption? I'm not fond of the continually extended jail time, but he is a criminal. The story title should really be "The Dubai Financial Fraud Trap".

Did you read the article? He's already served a sentence well exceeding that of the crime he's alleged to have committed. Now he's in jail at the behest of his creditors.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#59

Post by lmm »

codechad wrote: post #29
_hhkg wrote: post #25

As a Bay Area native who moved to Abu Dhabi / Dubai roughly four years ago, I have a lot of issues with the way the UAE is portrayed across sites like Hacker News and Reddit. A lot of them are in the comments for this story, focusing on all the negatives of the country, structural racism, human rights abuse, etc and we certainly have a right to raise these things (of which I actively fight against here every day). Th…

You wax poetically about UAE (mostly emotion, little fact), then remind the reader that it is an Islamic dictatorship. Why would any intelligent person ever set foot there? I'd lose over half of my current rights as it stands.

It's easy to think you have a lot of rights until you try to do something unpopular with them. I left the west for somewhere where I have a lot fewer rights on paper, but I feel so much freer now, no longer constantly worrying about what the mob thinks of everything I say.

I won't defend the UAE, but the level of freedom you have in actual daily life is surprisingly disconnected from what's written in a constitution or what the government is doing.

Re: The Dubai Debt Trap

#60

Post by apohn »

retube wrote: post #5

All I ever hear is horror stories about this place: environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot. I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.

I say this as somebody who lived in one of those Middle Eastern countries for a good period of my life. I'm not a white person and at that time I didn't have a US/European passport, so I didn't lead an extra privalaged life there.

Here's what you can hear about the USA.

1)Endless suburban sprawl, resulting in massive environmental destruction. Illegal immigrants heavily involved in the construction industry, leading to mass exploitation

2)Structural racism

3)Human rights on a sliding scale, with rich white rapists getting no jail sentences, and poor black people and immigrants going to jail for minor offenses.

4)Rich consumers pushing environmental and human rights issues to poor countries where people are exploited to build your $1000 phone and $250 shoe.

5)Lots of places where if you go and say "I'm an Atheist, Jesus is not God" will likely result in violence against you

6)Corrupt legal system, heavily favoring corporations and rich people

7)Absurdly hot in parts of it, Absurdly cold in other parts of it.

>I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.

Lots of people probably feel that way about the USA based on the news.

UAE (Dubai, Abu Dhabi), and other countries in that region, have a lot of issues. I'll be the first to admit it having had second class status there. But I can't help but feel that a lot of Western news outlets love to bash that part of the world because it plays into how a lot of people like to feel like the rest of the world is a shithole.

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