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Scientist busts myths about how humans burn calories

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Re: Scientist busts myths about how humans burn calories

#321
post #266
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes counting calories is essential, I had very similar experience (walk 10 km on the weekend ~= burn 600 kcal, then buy a 1000 kcal snack on the way back and wonder why I'm not losing weight), but still the exercise makes a big difference. Last year in march I started counting calories, recording my weight and all exercises I did and walking/biking every day. I lost 30 kg, walked 2100 km, biked 1000 km, and the sum o…

And yet the article you're commenting on says that you don't burn more calories by exercising... If it is true, it definitely changes the narrative.

I'm a bit confused by this point in the article, because it also states:

> There seems to be a hard limit on how many calories our bodies can burn per day, set by how fast we can digest food and turn it into energy. He calculates that the ceiling for an 85-kilogram man would be about 4650 calories per day.

Given that "regular" people clearly do not burn 4650 calories per day, and it is possible to burn 4650 calories per day, there must be a point at which exercise _does_ increase energy expenditure. I'm guessing it just doesn't happen for regular doses of exercise (including, evidently, walking 14km per day).

Perhaps the body down regulates calorie-consuming processes to a point where it's just the bare minimum, and calorie expenditure increases from there. Or perhaps we should take the opposite view and say that our bodies up regulate unwanted processes (like inflammation) to use the energy of an engine designed to keep running at a certain level?

Either way I find this incredibly interesting. And either way I'm probably also going to keep stuffing my face on a day I run 30km :).

Re: Scientist busts myths about how humans burn calories

#322
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> measuring calories out is extremely difficult unless you're willing to live in a sealed room that monitors your exhaled CO2 24/7 Is even that sufficient? Like, would you be able to tell the difference between "oxidation done by the body to generate energy for human cells" and "oxidation done by bacteria that feast on calories your human cells didn't get"? Maybe you could tell by the mixture of other gases, but I su…

Yeah, that's a very good point. This is kinda getting off into the weeds from the original point, but interesting weeds nonetheless :). This study[0] says that measuring CO2 is not enough, and that indirect calorimetry is the gold standard for measuring energy expenditure (EE). "Calculated EE based on CO2 measurement was not sufficiently accurate to consider the results as an alternative to measured EE by indirect ca…

Let's consider a specific example: Lactose intolerance. The Wiki page for it is pretty good. So, despite the name, lactose intolerance refers to lacking the enzyme lactase, which is used to break down lactose. If you have lactase, then your human cells can use the calories from lactose; if you don't, then the bacteria get the lactose. Wiki says "Symptoms may include abdominal pain, bloating, diarrhea, gas, and nausea", which sounds like the bacteria do indeed eat it; if the bacteria couldn't extract calories from it either, then I assume it would just pass through and there would be no symptoms.

Thus, if Bob and Joe eat the exact same diet that has some milk products, and Bob is lactose intolerant while Joe isn't, then Bob's cells get fewer calories from that diet than Joe's. If Bob and Joe's bodies are otherwise identical and follow identical exercise routines, then I would assume that, like, if the diet is exactly enough to maintain Joe's weight, then Bob would lose weight; and if it's exactly enough to maintain Bob's weight, then Joe would gain weight. (Right? For sake of illustration, we could imagine that most of the diet's calories are from milk, and assume Bob can tolerate the nausea.) Yet "calories in" (measured as food entering stomach) are identical, and "calories out" (measured as CO2) might also be identical.

Lactose is a specific, well-understood example of some people absorbing nutrients much better than others. I think there are other examples, and I expect there's a lot of variation in absorption efficiency that's less known. When you hear about people who eat lots of food and remain thin, I suspect this is part of the explanation. And whether their bacteria get the calories instead, or whether it passes through untouched, might show up in CO2 measurements but I don't think it would be related to body fat accumulation.

In a conservation-of-energy sense, "calories in" certainly gives you an upper bound on how many observed "calories out" you can produce without losing weight. But I don't think there's a lower bound on how inefficient someone's digestive system can be (except "zero"), or a practical upper bound on how much their cells might burn energy without us noticing (without close observation). I think, if you wanted a complete accounting of calories-out that would actually match the input, you'd need to add up (a) the heat a person puts out (via contact with air and surfaces, also infrared emissions), (b) the work they do in a physics sense (e.g. lifting heavy objects), and (c) the amount of un-burned calories in their stool (or any other excreted substances).

Re: Scientist busts myths about how humans burn calories

#323

The conclusion is almost certainly wrong: 1. From a simple sniff test, if this were true, then athletes wouldn't need a lot of calories. This obviously isn't true, eg Phelps eats 8-11K calories a day. I personally eat around 3.5K calories a day. If exercise didn't impact caloric burn I assure you I'd be a lot fatter... 2. The only plausible mechanisms for why exercise wouldn't result in more overall caloric burn is t…

I do think the point is also partly that what most people consider 'a good amount of exercise' isn't really very strenuous. Doing a bit of cardio and weights at the gym 3x a week isn't enough to offset a bad diet. If you run 10k every day, that's a very different ballgame because you meaningfully burn more calories than a regular diet gives you.

It's also incredibly easy, at least in America, to consume way too many calories. To meaningfully lose weight you have to drastically change your diet or drastically up your movement.

Re: Scientist busts myths about how humans burn calories

#324
post #93
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a big part of the issue is that popular fitness and weight loss advice has perpetuated the wrong way to exercise to loose weight. When most people think about exercise for weight loss, they imagine long exhausting sessions on the treadmill, dripping with sweat, and a high calorie burn number. While the short term results may seem great based on the immediate calories burned, it's actually a terrible strategy…

If you fall into a routine CICO isn't that difficult in practice. First, while sleep/stress definitely impact the equation unless you are at an unusual life crisis, the ups and downs mostly balance out over time. Second, I don't recommend counting calories, at least not in the traditional way. Instead, eat a fairly standardized diet at least on a weekly basis, so roughly the same meals (doesn't have to be exact). Eat…

Based on your description, I will venture a guess that you are not obese / grossly overweight. There is good evidence from various studies that obese/overweight people are not typically able to achieve this - usually their craving for food is far too powerful to just control simply by falling into a routine; or, the body sometimes finds other ways to adjust (the lipostat model).

This is really the problem with CICO - it is definitely correct in an abstract sense (weight doesn't come from thin air, and neither does food you eat magically disappear), but the factors controlling calories in and calories out are far more complex. Human behavior is far from being entirely rationally determined. Our choices (particularly in regards to food, exercise, and other basic needs) are to a great extent controlled by our metabolism, even though it often doesn't seem that way.

This probably explains why people rarely lose weight on the long term - you can allow yourself to be forced to eat less than your body thinks it needs for a while, and obviously you'll lose weight; but you will go right back up to your "normal" weight as soon as the forcing stops (program ends, willpower exhausted etc).

Re: Scientist busts myths about how humans burn calories

#325
post #137
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you fall into a routine CICO isn't that difficult in practice. First, while sleep/stress definitely impact the equation unless you are at an unusual life crisis, the ups and downs mostly balance out over time. Second, I don't recommend counting calories, at least not in the traditional way. Instead, eat a fairly standardized diet at least on a weekly basis, so roughly the same meals (doesn't have to be exact). Eat…

I have also done almost exactly this process, and it worked for years to regulate my weight. But then I hit a plateau (a high plateau, not a low one) where I was unable to drop weight no matter how low I cut my calories. I started at a range that I knew had worked in the past, and lowered it over the course of weeks, well past the point where I was miserable. I even tried more complicated things, like varying my inta…

I don’t see how the weight change is relevant in this. Muscle weighs more than fat, so your strength training caused you to build up some muscle, making you heavier. The valuable metric to track would be what % of your body is fat mass vs. muscle mass

Re: Scientist busts myths about how humans burn calories

#326
Of fine running alone might not help you to lose weight. Also there might be a feedback loop to not eat too much crap for a serious runner. E.g. running with less weight is just more fun :-) But does that mean other activities where you gain muscle mass would not help to keep your weight in an acceptable range? I could be very well the case that burn more energy because you have more muscles.

Re: Scientist busts myths about how humans burn calories

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re reading that wrong. Of course you burn more calories through exercise. Michael Phelps couldn’t have eaten 12k cals a day if exercise didn’t burn calories.

Is it certain that we absorb all of the calories we consume? I went on a backpacking trip with my friends recently and despite similar activity levels everybody was surprised when they noticed that I eat twice as much as anybody else in the group. Maybe I should bring it up with a doctor, but I feel fine, I just also spend more on food than most.

No, there's lots of calories in stool, but it depends on the type of food. For example, eating lots of fats and oils tends to "go through". On the other hand, rate of metabolism varies between people too.

Re: Scientist busts myths about how humans burn calories

#328
> when adjusted for nonfat body mass

> when adjusted for fat-free body mass

The article is not cheating, but it's not underlining this bit which is essential. It's talking about aerobic exercise, which means "trying to run your way to being thin doesn't work". Which may be news for some people on HN from what I see, but is far from being new or controversial.

On the other hand, building muscle gives you a perpetual "eat more" card. It permanently increases your fat free mass, and thus your TEE. I haven't heard anything about a similar increase in appetite - if anything, bodybuilders struggle to eat enough calories. So, boys and girls, definitely hit the gym. Just stay away from the stepper and pick up some weights. Also don't forget protein intake when you do that.

Re: Scientist busts myths about how humans burn calories

#329

The conclusion is almost certainly wrong: 1. From a simple sniff test, if this were true, then athletes wouldn't need a lot of calories. This obviously isn't true, eg Phelps eats 8-11K calories a day. I personally eat around 3.5K calories a day. If exercise didn't impact caloric burn I assure you I'd be a lot fatter... 2. The only plausible mechanisms for why exercise wouldn't result in more overall caloric burn is t…

> 1. then athletes wouldn't need a lot of calories.

Some don't. Think about marathon runners (which would be pretty close to the tribe studied), they have a muscle ratio that is way lower than your Phelps example and their body composition if also probably more efficient than yours (I don't know you, but let's assume). I wouldn't be surprised if a pro marathon runner would have be close to your 3.5K a day when going through light training.

Think of it through different angles: mountain trekkers aren't packing 80kg of sugar to go through their trekking, their bodies are way more efficient at doing these tasks and need less calories to work than what we'd expect from a random person. It literally means doing more with less.

> This often happens to people trying extreme calorie loss diets.

This happens to everyone. From your link: "In fact, your body is hard wired to maintain energy balance within a fairly small range."

> 3.

It seems well argued but just really nitpicky. It goes into the whole energy intake vs energy spent debate to explain why they don't agree with the methodology, but don't prove why they think the conclusion is wrong. It's as if I'd nitpick your use of calorie intake measurements and explain in great details how it's approximation of an approximation and we have no way to actually know someone's actual intake calorie, without ever engaging with your actual points.

Re: Scientist busts myths about how humans burn calories

#330

Last thing I saw was "The son of two high school English teachers, Pontzer grew up on 40 hectares of woods in the Appalachian bla bla bla..." You know that sentence. So many articles have that sentence. The one where it veers off course to talk about the (usually uninteresting) person who found the thing the article is ostensibly and nominally about. Am I alone in being perfectly happy reading about science for the d…

I'm really having a hard time reading this. They lost me even before, when they said he likes hiking and he's not fat. Good science can come from the worst people. Show me the data, no need to sell me the authors.
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