Earlier quoted context omitted.
When there's a real possibility of meaningful and useful insights, we might consider taking it seriously. For me, this can be linked in part to the person's experience and credibility. Caplan isn't some interloper with no knowledge of any of the material he touches on ranting on Twitter. The man has a career as an economics researcher specializing in public-sector work and actually teaches economics at a reasonably p…
Quoted post unavailable.
No one cared about my spreadsheets
391–400 of 413 posts
Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets
#392Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I was considering reading the book to see what the calculations are and how they refute those correlations. He talks about this stuff too, for example, as education is correlated with health, he also estimates health benefits in his return to education calculations. The problem with many correlations that you mention is that they are, indeed, just correlation. There is scant evidence on there being casual relations…
>> I was considering reading the book to see what the calculations are and how they refute those correlations. > He talks about this stuff too, for example, as education is correlated with health, he also estimates health benefits in his return to education calculations. > The problem with many correlations that you mention is that they are, indeed, just correlation. There is scant evidence on there being casual rela…
I believe the point might be that it's perhaps not so simple as "good for society" or "bad for society". Water is good for a human right up until the point that they drown in it. Does this make water good for humans, bad for humans, or is a binary answer too simple?
Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets
#393Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the term "negative signal" muddies the water here. Caplan is walking on a bit of a tightrope. He is arguing that colleges provide minimal education benefits, and that its primary value is in the signaling provided by the degree. But if Caplan is correct, why would someone drop out in their senior year? If the only real benefit is the degree, and if the degree comes with a lifetime of increased wages, surely a…
> But if Caplan is correct, why would someone drop out in their senior year? That doesn’t matter. We don’t have to walk the hypothetical parts along with one person. If your value increases linearly with education and there is no signaling effect, you could drop out 10min before graduation, and your salary would end up being the same as someone who went the last 10min and got the diploma. Obviously that’s not the cas…
I am not assuming that at all. The requirements to get a diploma are more than just learning in class. It involves navigating a complex bureaucracy, long term planning, and a certain level of maturity. It is entirely possible that someone could plod along for 7 semesters while having no better chance at graduating than someone who dropped out in the first year. But someone who struggles in school but still manages to push through and get a degree has demonstrated a sufficient level of growth and maturity to warrant extra consideration from future employers. Caplan thinks the degree is a meritless signal, and he thinks his "sheepskin effect" analysis proves this. And I am saying that his "sheepskin effect" requires analysis data from the college dropouts, but the fact that college dropouts exist at all implies more social value to the degree than he lets on. In fairness, he does try and address the potential "ability bias" of the sheepskin effect in his book, but I found it not particularly convincing (the study he referenced controls for standardized test scores, which seem tautological as college students have already been "sorted" to a high degree by those same scores).
> And some signaling is present
I am not arguing that signaling is not present. I am arguing against Caplan's theory that +90% of the value of the degree is signaling. If you read his book, he spends some time explaining that the ratio of the value of "human capital" vs "signaling" of a college degree is a key factor in whether or not college has social value. He claims that college is almost entirely "signaling", and therefore has negative social value. And he tries to use his spreadsheet analysis about the "sheepskin effect" to prove this. But what we are saying in this thread is that he is hiding some ideologically driven assumptions in his analysis. Someone else hypothesized that the effect could be due to an inefficient hiring market. I am arguing that the obtaining the degree in and of it self is a merit worthy accomplishment valued highly by the market. And others still could argue that maybe job candidates do not post partial educational experiences on their resume for fear of negative signaling. All of these could be partially true, or none of these could be true. It doesn't really matter. They all are plausible arguments for why the sheepskin effect exists and their isn't sufficient evidence to disprove their plausibility.
Feel free to counter anything I said with ideological arguments. But be warned that doing so merely proves the point I am trying to make. The entire point of this thread was to figure out why no one audited Caplan's spreadsheet. The most common argument, was that the spreadsheet is irrelevant if the analysis was stitched together with ideological assumptions. Your math can be correct, but someone with a different world view will interpret the meaning of those numbers differently than you will. And some of us took a look at his spreadsheet, and instead of a "smoking gun" we got exactly what we expected. A bunch of squishy formulas using squishy data trying to control for squishy variables and at the end a fairly large leap in how to interpret the results.
Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets
#394Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a good point. Caplan makes a huge deal about the fact that a students that drops out one semester before finishing the degree takes a huge penalty to their salary. This is what he calls the “sheep skin effect”. He claims that because such a student gets almost all of the education, their penalty must correspond to the signaling component. But this is where his math runs against common sense. If you are an emp…
Ah, but if Caplan's signaling hypothesis is true, it creates an arbitrage opportunity. I'm thinking hypothetically and in broad terms. Take that N-1 dropout. If that person is worth more to a business than their market wage, then a savvy business person would have a profit motive to hire them for more than their market wage, but less than their known value, resulting in a win for the worker and the employer. A big en…
Someone who doesn't finish high school, without a good reason, in our society which says finishing high school is important... simply failed to finish. They're more likely to fail to finish other things. The rational free market views that negatively.
If we lived in a society which expected people to get a 12-year hula-hooping certificate by the age of 18, you'd expect those with the certificate to be more employable. The employers in that world aren't irrational, the society is.
Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets
#395Earlier quoted context omitted.
And you know what? Just like with my hobbyist friend, I thought the spreadsheet they made were a valuable contribution! I thought it was BETTER than just guessing. Heck I know it was because so many mods in starsector bring in unintentionally broken equipment and make the game easy. Using their spreadsheet on those mods showed clear heuristics that indicated what in practice seemed to be true. But my hobbyist friend…
> My priors already have education being a net benefit as highly probable, and I'll update, but not much. How'd you get those priors?
I'm in no personal position to otherwise say boo.
Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets
#396Earlier quoted context omitted.
I read the article, and I even read through the presentation linked in the article. I didn't read the book, but I'm also not giving a qualitative review of the book. I'm talking about why people don't think it's worth engaging with to begin with. It's not that his critics are afraid or incapable of engaging with him, but that he's being dismissed out of hand because (regardless of whether it's true or not) he present…
> I'm talking about why people don't think it's worth engaging with to begin with. But that's not what the author is talking about in his article - you did read it, right? His book is drawing criticism from people who haven't read it. It's fine to choose not to engage with something, but if you're going to comment on it you should read it.
Caplan indirectly mentions a paper criticising him, and his dismissal is that it doesn't acknowledge the math.
It's entirely reasonable to comment on why you're choosing not to dedicate your time to something. Especially when the thing to be analysed relies on fundamentally incommensurable values.
FWIW, from actually reading his notes and the extracts of the spreadsheets he quickly dips into a number of flaky assumptions and uses them to apply "corrective biases" which make it very easy to dismiss without wasting time on arduous numerical analysis.
Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets
#397Earlier quoted context omitted.
> My priors already have education being a net benefit as highly probable, and I'll update, but not much. How'd you get those priors?
I guess just a life of listening to people, like economists, who were in more knowledgable positions than I, repeatedly saying it over and over again. I'm in no personal position to otherwise say boo.
Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets
#398Earlier quoted context omitted.
> [S]chool inculcates many attitudes that, regardless of their moral worth, impede on-the-job success. If you’re preparing kids for their adult roles, a year of work experience instills more suitable discipline and socialization than a year of school. > The imperfect overlap between the school ethic and the work ethic is especially blatant in modern American colleges. Fifty years ago, college was a full-time job. The…
> The imperfect overlap between the school ethic and the work ethic is especially blatant in modern American colleges. Fifty years ago, college was a full-time job. The typical student spent 40 hours a week in class or studying.98 Since the early 1960s, effort collapsed across the board. “Full-time” college students average 27 hours of academic work per week—and only 14 hours of studying. (...) ? So your sentence doe…
Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets
#399Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ah, but if Caplan's signaling hypothesis is true, it creates an arbitrage opportunity. I'm thinking hypothetically and in broad terms. Take that N-1 dropout. If that person is worth more to a business than their market wage, then a savvy business person would have a profit motive to hire them for more than their market wage, but less than their known value, resulting in a win for the worker and the employer. A big en…
If his signaling hypothesis is true, employers are reading the signal correctly. Someone who doesn't finish high school, without a good reason, in our society which says finishing high school is important... simply failed to finish. They're more likely to fail to finish other things. The rational free market views that negatively. If we lived in a society which expected people to get a 12-year hula-hooping certificat…
Also, I don't know the extent to which this is an issue, but the US has a distinction between workers who have to be paid an hourly wage, and those who are "exempt," and one of the allowable criteria is whether the job requires a college degree. Comparing the value of hourly and salaried employees requires knowing how much they actually earn.
Re: No one cared about my spreadsheets
#400Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quoted post unavailable.
You can have an opinion about everything, but others are not obliged to like it and/or give you a platform for it. Baseless opinions are not interesting to read, and if there is a base for it, then that would be worth posting. Also, not sure why you're afraid of troll responses given that your comment is literally trolling (merriam webster, definition 2c).