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Elastic and Amazon reach agreement on trademark infringement lawsuit

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Re: Elastic and Amazon reach agreement on trademark infringement lawsuit

#111
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is AWS stomping all over it? Being able to fork for your own needs is a good thing. You don't make something open source and accept the world's free contributions without acknowledging that.

Again, you’re leading with the definition-of-FOSS argument. Step back from FOSS for a second. I think most people would agree that there’s somewhat of a moral issue with just taking someone else’s open source software and just hosting it and making billions, with nothing for the creators, because you are a megacorp who is good at hosting. Now, is there a way to solve that and have the benefits of FOSS? Both Mongo and…

> If everyone stomps their feet and says "there's no solution, otherwise it's not OSS!" then the end result is only going to be a lot less open-source software

There's going to be less people trading on the idea of open source software while relying on the exclusivity of control of proprietary software—which in fact does not solve the problems which lead users to prefer open source software—to enable monetization, so we’ll be back to the status quo before the last handful of years where open source software was peripheral projects and supporting infrastructure funded by its users either as internal projects or via external foundations, rather than the central products of startups that have no business plan consistent with the product remaining open. But that’s okay.

Re: Elastic and Amazon reach agreement on trademark infringement lawsuit

#112
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, you’re leading with the definition-of-FOSS argument. Step back from FOSS for a second. I think most people would agree that there’s somewhat of a moral issue with just taking someone else’s open source software and just hosting it and making billions, with nothing for the creators, because you are a megacorp who is good at hosting. Now, is there a way to solve that and have the benefits of FOSS? Both Mongo and…

Don't you think there's a moral issue expecting free contributions to something which only you are allowed to monetize? And how can you satisfy users to the greatest extent while also preventing them from using the provider that is best able to meet their needs? EDIT: regarding your inline response, > Nowhere in OSS licenses does it include the expectations of free contributions The expectation is not encoded in the…

I want to afford anyone the benefit of an F/OSS license so they don’t have to waste their life energy recreating a wheel that I’ve already created. If it helps you and saves you time, have at it! In other cases, I contribute back patches so that companies can ship better software to their users (sometimes so I benefit; other times just so someone else doesn’t have to fix the same bug I just fixed).

This license case isn’t about “you can personally monetize it and nobody else” but rather “you and anyone else who wants to can try to monetize it”.

Re: Elastic and Amazon reach agreement on trademark infringement lawsuit

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, you’re leading with the definition-of-FOSS argument. Step back from FOSS for a second. I think most people would agree that there’s somewhat of a moral issue with just taking someone else’s open source software and just hosting it and making billions, with nothing for the creators, because you are a megacorp who is good at hosting. Now, is there a way to solve that and have the benefits of FOSS? Both Mongo and…

> If everyone stomps their feet and says "there's no solution, otherwise it's not OSS!" then the end result is only going to be a lot less open-source software There's going to be less people trading on the idea of open source software while relying on the exclusivity of control of proprietary software—which in fact does not solve the problems which lead users to prefer open source software —to enable monetization, s…

I mean it seems to me like of these two situations:

1) there's a lot of software that's mostly-open-source-except-Amazon-isnt-allowed-to-run-a-hosted-version-of-it-without-paying-the-authors

2) all the software from 1) is completely proprietary

a lot more people benefit from 1 than 2. But somehow it seems that OSS purists prefer #2? It seems like they would rather less Open-Source Software in the world, all to maintain the purity of the meaning?

Re: Elastic and Amazon reach agreement on trademark infringement lawsuit

#114
post #75

Hopefully this will let each of them compete on their own merits. I’ve been tossing up moving our workloads to Elastic Cloud anyway, because AWS ES Service is a source of constant headaches for us. Feels like at least once a week a server ends up in a state where we can’t fix it, and AWS engineers have to manually fix their internal state. Their standard response is “add more nodes”; well, we did that, and it is cost…

I think the AWS ES Service is the worst AWS service I've ever used. WE have constant issues with it and AWS staff don't seem all that comfortable working with it - which is rare in my experience. All in all, it's the most hands-on 'manged service' I've used.

Re: Elastic and Amazon reach agreement on trademark infringement lawsuit

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is. AGPL + dual licensing.

How would dual licensing go down, ideally in these cases? I figured if that worked, Elastic, Redis, MariaDB, Mongo, Timescale, and Cockroach Labs would have gone that route

The idea behind dual licensing is that hosting providers would pay for a license and others wouldn't. The arguments that AGPL isn't strong enough are pretty speculative.

Re: Elastic and Amazon reach agreement on trademark infringement lawsuit

#118

This announcement is confusing, because it makes no mention of OpenSearch. The announcement implies that OpenSearch should no longer be available on AWS, but (of course) it is.

Yes it is intentionally misleading about that

Re: Elastic and Amazon reach agreement on trademark infringement lawsuit

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If everyone stomps their feet and says "there's no solution, otherwise it's not OSS!" then the end result is only going to be a lot less open-source software There's going to be less people trading on the idea of open source software while relying on the exclusivity of control of proprietary software—which in fact does not solve the problems which lead users to prefer open source software —to enable monetization, s…

I mean it seems to me like of these two situations: 1) there's a lot of software that's mostly-open-source-except-Amazon-isnt-allowed-to-run-a-hosted-version-of-it-without-paying-the-authors 2) all the software from 1) is completely proprietary a lot more people benefit from 1 than 2. But somehow it seems that OSS purists prefer #2? It seems like they would rather less Open-Source Software in the world, all to mainta…

I don't think it's a matter of maintaining the purity of the meaning, it's about maintaining the intent. The point of FOSS isn't to let people benefit up to the point where they start being able to outcompete you, the point is to let people benefit freely. If you want to achieve the former, you can just release it for free for non-commercial purposes.

Re: Elastic and Amazon reach agreement on trademark infringement lawsuit

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe I got the timelines wrong - isn't that what was originally happening with Mongo and AWS - AWS was hosting Mongo when it was still under AGPL? Absolutely not. The AGPL terrified AWS so much that they did a clean room implementation and built an entirely new database that was wire compatible with MongoDB. Hence, Mongo relicensed under a new license, the SSPL, that says if you implement an SSPL-covered API, the…

Interesting - so a clean room implementation is somehow more attractive than complying with the AGPL. So AGPL is open source, but in practice it seems like it's so much more restrictive than something like BSL that is not open source. This just makes OSS vs not-OSS seem like even more of an theoretical line in the sand. As for > Hence, Mongo relicensed under a new license, the SSPL, that says if you implement an SSPL…

This is one of the big reasons I think that discussing "open source" is dangerous and tricky. It's not a binary, and there's no one monolith that decides what it is/it isn't. Even ignoring the traditional "FSF vs BSD" holy wars, there's plenty of depth. For example: is the JSON license[0] open source? It's certainly permissive enough, but lots of different groups have different interpretations as to why it isn't: the FSF[1] says it violates their freedom zero, that a user has the right to run a program as they want for any purpose; the OSI says it isn't because their licenses cannot discriminate around intent - quite literally, the OSI supports Evil here ;-)

I've released code under permissive licenses (Apache, BSD, and MPL that I remember off-hand), and at least one feature I know made its way into a commercial product. In those cases I simply didn't care because I didn't consider the code particularly novel, important, or special. It scratched my itch. Occasionally it scratched my employers itch, so I was already paid to write it, which was nice.

If I ever write code that I consider novel, important, or special, I plan to release it under AGPL3 - while you may think Google is overreacting on accident or to create FUD around it, the plain text of the license makes the intent exceptionally clear:

> public use of a modified version, on a publicly accessible server, gives the public access to the source code of the modified version.

This alone is enough to make the AGPL3 blacklisted anywhere that wants to keep their source closed: you may believe the courts would decide for the big corporation if push comes to shove, and you may even be right, but practical evidence shows that almost nobody wants to risk it.

Part of the problem here is that a generation of programmers seems to think that open source is all the same, so a license is something that you just whack to when your scaffolding tool suggests one. But in reality, talking about "open source" is useless at best and dangerously imprecise at worst, talking about licenses is the only way to get people on the same page.

> That definitely looks ugly on Mongo, implementing an API is such a fundamental part of software compatibility. Seems like the exact wrong way to go about it.

It did the trick for them, at least against AWS: as expected, they successfully forced the wire format to diverge after AWS launched DocumentDB. It also got them pulled from Debian, Fedora, and I don't know how many other distributions for being non-free. But hey, at that point, they were already a known quantity, so it probably won't hurt in the long run.

[0]: https://json.org/license.html

[1]: https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/License:JSON

[2]: https://opensource.org/osd

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