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Consciousness is supported by near-critical slow cortical electrodynamics
71–80 of 109 posts
Re: Consciousness is supported by near-critical slow cortical electrodynamics
#72Can anyone ELI5 this?
Eh, not really. It's hard to describe features of chaos / nonlinear dynamics simply. There are features of chaotic systems that undergo phase changes from one type of behavior to another. Think a signal on one side of the transition to look like a pure sine wave and on the other side of the transition to look like purely random white noise. What these guys are reporting is that they found a parameter, a signal they c…
> it's also the kind of thing that can open a backdoor for free will in a deterministic universe, your brain in this chaotic state might behave deterministically but the actual state would never be knowable with enough precision to predict the outcome of inputs for any amount of time
Hmm, what about predictability conflicts with the idea of free will? Just because my actions are predictable doesn't mean they aren't a reflection of my will. It seems to me that the opposite is true, there is no coherent "you" if your actions aren't based on a consistent set of rules since that implies how you behave ultimately has no connection to who you are. To escape determinism means to become literally insane.
Re: Consciousness is supported by near-critical slow cortical electrodynamics
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
For me personally, when I use the term "free will", I mean something stronger than "deterministic, but not provably so". That's more of a "free will of the gaps" - claiming that free will is hiding somewhere in the holes in our knowledge.
a) Information complexity is a measurable physical quantity. b) Unlike matter and energy, information complexity does not obey laws of conservation. (Demonstrably so.) c) Ergo, an information complexity singularity can exist, and if it does - we would be reasonably correct in calling it "free will".
Can you point me in the direction of further reading?
Re: Consciousness is supported by near-critical slow cortical electrodynamics
#74This strikes me as totally unsurprising. How could it be otherwise? It's basically saying that a brain normally operates in an interesting dynamical mode: not chaotic, and not very regular. Wow? If it were chaotic, we wouldn't have coherent or consistent behavior at any scale. If overly regular, we'd be incredibly dull and unable to respond to the environment. You could do this with a computer. If your signals coming…
Interestingly, this is how (surgical) sedatives usually work. They increase the average activity of all neurons, so the brain is losing consciousness, because no coherent thoughts can circulate anymore.
This is not supported by the literature as far as I'm aware, do you have a source? Propofol, the most common adult surgical anesthetic, decreases neuronal activity via the mechanism of making it harder for action potentials to fire [0], and has a litany of effects few of which are excitatory , and generally correlated to decreasing cortical activity [1].
And ketamine, the most common pediatric and veterinary anesthetic, has a complex mechanism of action acting on GABA, NMDA, and other receptor systems, often with generally inhibitory characteristics [2] and with definite decrease in brain activity in animal models [3].
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430884/
[1] https://elifesciences.org/articles/60824#:~:text=The%20broad....
[2] https://journals.lww.com/anesthesia-analgesia/Fulltext/1998/...
[3] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/002839...
Re: Consciousness is supported by near-critical slow cortical electrodynamics
#75This strikes me as totally unsurprising. How could it be otherwise? It's basically saying that a brain normally operates in an interesting dynamical mode: not chaotic, and not very regular. Wow? If it were chaotic, we wouldn't have coherent or consistent behavior at any scale. If overly regular, we'd be incredibly dull and unable to respond to the environment. You could do this with a computer. If your signals coming…
>If overly regular, we'd be incredibly dull and unable to respond to the environment.
What do you mean by this? Are computers regular? What about a computer programmed to respond to its environment? What do you even mean "respond to environment"? Why does it operate in this mode when awake but not when asleep?
Please, since this research is so obvious to you, I would love to hear your insights on consciousness. They are far beyond mine.
Re: Consciousness is supported by near-critical slow cortical electrodynamics
#76This strikes me as totally unsurprising. How could it be otherwise? It's basically saying that a brain normally operates in an interesting dynamical mode: not chaotic, and not very regular. Wow? If it were chaotic, we wouldn't have coherent or consistent behavior at any scale. If overly regular, we'd be incredibly dull and unable to respond to the environment. You could do this with a computer. If your signals coming…
Welcome to the world of Complex Systems research. Complex Systems guy: we just showed a system operates in a critical state scale-free phase transition and its key statistics have a power law distribution! Everyone: okay, so? CS guy: I dunno? That's what our discipline does. It tells you things are in critical states with power laws. So now you know that...
I think this research is super interesting, and it's disappointing such a blaze, dismissive comment is at the top.
Cosmologists: we literally took a picture of a black hole!
Someone: So? I already knew they existed. Besides, it's not a picture of a black hole, it's just the ring around the black hole. yawn
Cosmologists: oh... sorry for wasting your time.
Re: Consciousness is supported by near-critical slow cortical electrodynamics
#77This strikes me as totally unsurprising. How could it be otherwise? It's basically saying that a brain normally operates in an interesting dynamical mode: not chaotic, and not very regular. Wow? If it were chaotic, we wouldn't have coherent or consistent behavior at any scale. If overly regular, we'd be incredibly dull and unable to respond to the environment. You could do this with a computer. If your signals coming…
If overly regular, you're probably having a seizure.
Re: Consciousness is supported by near-critical slow cortical electrodynamics
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
Welcome to the world of Complex Systems research. Complex Systems guy: we just showed a system operates in a critical state scale-free phase transition and its key statistics have a power law distribution! Everyone: okay, so? CS guy: I dunno? That's what our discipline does. It tells you things are in critical states with power laws. So now you know that...
I think this research is super interesting, and it's disappointing such a blaze, dismissive comment is at the top. Cosmologists: we literally took a picture of a black hole! Someone: So? I already knew they existed. Besides, it's not a picture of a black hole, it's just the ring around the black hole. yawn Cosmologists: oh... sorry for wasting your time.
I was far more interested in the algorithms they used than the actual picture of the black hole.
Re: Consciousness is supported by near-critical slow cortical electrodynamics
#79It's a weird feeling to realize how we're all just hardware, and it might be possible to wake up someone who's "brain dead"/vegetative by LSD (the paper mentions how psychedelics affect this cortical electrodynamics, and as this old article[1] mentions the LSD). Imagine someone flipping a switch (in the future where tech to control the electrodynamics exists) and you're awake and aware of your surroundings again. [1]…
Ambien has been known to rouse people out of a coma and help with other brain disorders: https://www.verywellhealth.com/ambien-for-coma-dystonia-and-...
Re: Consciousness is supported by near-critical slow cortical electrodynamics
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
it's the definition. "chaotic systems" aren't just... unpredictable things that we find laying around and say "yeah we'll call that chaotic because it looks like my kid's bedroom". they've got to satisfy that description.
I'm asking if there's a proof for determinism itself. I was under the impression that we've only ever been inferring consistency is a property of reality. If you can QED me to a conclusion that yes, in fact, the sun will rise in the morning, I would genuinely find that useful.
> I'm asking if there's a proof for determinism itself.
sounds like you tried to take a flying leap away from the mathematically sound, and pedestrian statement of darawk into philosophy. you should warn people about that, so that people know not to bother.
> If you can QED me to a conclusion that yes, in fact, the sun will rise in the morning, I would genuinely find that useful.
if "gravity" isn't enough of an answer for you, then nothing can ever be.